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Model 12 Y with Step Rib?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by vvosen, Oct 6, 2007.

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  1. vvosen

    vvosen TS Member

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    Model 12 Gurus:

    I just picked up a very rough (some moron ported the barrel with a drill) Y model with a step rib and can't find any information on this type of rib on a Model 12. SN indicates a 1965 manufacture. It seems like I have seen them around but not too often. Was this an aftermarket item, or factory? What is the story? Thanks. Vic Vosen
     
  2. vvosen

    vvosen TS Member

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    Pat,

    Good call! I just took a closer look and the Y is much fainter than the serial number which comes up as a '65 vintage.

    Vic
     
  3. winchesterm12

    winchesterm12 TS Member

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    Original Y models start with serial #'s over 2,xxx,xxx. Y model manufacturing started in 1973. There are NO!! original 20 gauge Y models, if you see a Y on an earlier ser# (pre 2,000,000) some one stamped it there in their garage or at their kitchen table it wasn't done by winchester, and why would you want too Y's are less valuble. Winchester did not offer a stepped rib but look closely at you gun, some of the Y models had a screw at the front of the rib to hold it to the barrel if this screw breaks or is stripped, which is common, recoil could bend the factory rib up at the rear making it look like a step rib. I have also see this on super x-1's


    pumpgunner
     
  4. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    P3AT

    Oh I wouldnt put such stock in Steve Barnetts fine guns- they can ask whatever they want and they are not the final authority on what something is or is not by any means

    Gene
     
  5. winchesterm12

    winchesterm12 TS Member

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    There are suckers born every day and alot of them have too much money. 30" 20's are rare but where offered. Most of them were prewar guns but they were cataloged. Believing that every dealer correctly advertises or knows everything about every type of gun is like believing everything you see or hear from the media. Good clean and original model 12's are made more valuble by all the fakes, build ups and, the people who will pay top dollar and more for them. The actual pool of collector gun is getting smaller all the time and more valuble. The biggest problem is everone thinks they are the expert and lets face it most of the people who were the model 12 experts have long past on all we have are the books and records that are left to decipher what is original or not. I'm far from any expert but I've seen and ownwed more 12's than I could ever count and we're not talking 50 or 60 of them either. I base my judgements on experience and writen facts
     
  6. Model12SuperPigeon

    Model12SuperPigeon TS Member

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    Regarding the use of the 'Y' prefix...I have two Super Pigeon Grade Model 12's. A 12 ga trap model with SN Y1966xxx and a 12 ga skeet model with SN Y1968xxx. According to one source, the trap model dates to 1969. And regarding the skeet gun, I have a letter from Winchester documenting that the gun was shipped from the factory on Dec 8 1971, and in the letter, they do refer to the sn including the 'Y' prefix...so Winchester themselves seems to have no issue regarding 'Y' sn's prior to 2,000,000. On both guns, the addition of the Y's were clearly added after the 7 digit 'numeric' part of the sn was originally stamped, based on the 'Y' being a lighter stamp, and also based on the way the numbers are centered. In both cases, the sn is centered in the fourth digit, making the overall 8 character sn, including the Y, off center. On the other hand, my 1985 Super Pigeon Skeet sn Y202xxxx (incidentally, one of the last 480 M12's made in New Haven) has the sn centered correctly, with four characters to the right and left of the centerline, respectively. I recall reading somewhere (but I can't remember or find the original source), that Winchester changed their inventory system in the late 60's, which resulted in the 'Y' prefix being added by the factory to some guns still in house. This subject is of intense curiosity to me and I would appreciate hearing of any other documentation of factual data on the subject.

    Tim
     
  7. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    A reprint from an earlier thread , my sources say that the last 1963 gun was serial # 1,964,759. I believe yours to be a 1964 gun.I have a friend that was the last manager of the custom shop and he states that recievers were kept for repair and custom orders ,any serial numbered reciever up to 1,999,999 was made from 1964 back. The custom shop put together guns as late as 1993 from pre 64 recievers. He states that he personally put together a 2 barrel set in 1993 from a pre 64 receiver. He also said that any of the guns after the 1970's that were assembled with the early recievers had to have the Y added to get there new numbering system to accept them to be shipped. So even if you happen to have a "Y" gun with a serial number before 2,000,000 it will still be a pre-64. Jeff
     
  8. panthers314

    panthers314 TS Member

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    Question: Are all "Y" Models with ribs,jeweled "Trap" models but not stamped???
     
  9. panthers314

    panthers314 TS Member

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  10. coltman

    coltman TS Member

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    THIS IS ONLY SPECULATION BUT AFTER THE GUN CUNTROL ACT OF 1968 MANUFACTURES OF FIREAMS IN SOME CASES WERE REQUIRED BY FEDERAL LAW TO AD PREFIX LETTERS TO SOME OF THERE MODELS SERIAL NO'S, SUCH AS "G" BEFORE NO'S ON WINCHESTER MODEL 70'S AND "W" ON WIN. MODEL 21'S SEE PAGE 265 OF WINCHESTERS FINEST THE MODEL 21 BOOK. IT STATES AFTER 1968 ALL SERIAL NO'S ON 21'S WERE REQUIRED TO HAVE A LETTER PREFIX. AFTER 1969 ALL 21'S HAD A "W" PRECEEDING THE SERIAL NO. EVEN THOUGH THE LAST FRAMES WERE MADE IN 1955.ITS MY FEELING THAT ANY MODEL 12 UNDER 1999999 IS A PRE-64 AS THATS WHAT THE FACTS SEEM TO SHOW US. HOPE THIS HELPS. RICH.
     
  11. coltman

    coltman TS Member

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    THANK YOU SO MUCH TIM & JEFF, YOUR INFO HAS DONE MUCH TO HELP ME UNDERSTAND THIS THING ABOUT THE "y" SERIES GUNS. AND WITH THIS SUBJECT ANY INFO HELPS. THANKS AGAIN RICH.
     
  12. sx1skeet

    sx1skeet TS Member

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    well i had a super pidgon made in 1970 that had a y in the per fix it sold for 5500 with factory letter
     
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