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*****Model 12 question*****

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bvr Tail, Apr 8, 2010.

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  1. Bvr Tail

    Bvr Tail Well-Known Member

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    When did the first model 12 "Y" series first appear?

    I'm asking because I saw one that,according to the serial no., is a 1971 model, and it does not have a "Y" before the serial no. My info shows there were very few model 12's made in 1971.

    Did some model 12 "Y" series, not have the "Y" stamped in the serial no.?

    A little help, please.

    Danny
     
  2. acorange

    acorange Well-Known Member

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    I would have to look in my gun catalog archives but I thought Y-models came out in 1973.
    After 1964 there was many M-12's assembled from parts by the custom shop before the Y-models came out, most of them as high grade and/or target guns.
    One of them was my 1st trap gun. ser. #1966xxx which I foolishly traded at the ingnornant age of 15.
    My M-12 ser. # reference says that the last gun made at the end of 1963
    was #1964384
    To my knowledge no Y-models were made without the Y prefix. They were made with parts that were more cheaply made and I think all of them had jeweled bolts and carriers.
    Hope this helps....
     
  3. fishguts

    fishguts Member

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    "Y" guns were made after 1964 when the M12 was dropped from the Winchester line. Guns made from 1964 until 1972 had a "Y" in front of the serial number and the first number in the serial number will be a "1". In 1972 M12's were introduced again in production form and the serial numbers began with a 2 and had a"Y" in front.

    "Y" guns made from 1964 until 1972 were made in the custom shop with left over parts or newly made parts of a cheaper grade. "Y" guns made from 1972 and on were produced with investment castings and were of a poorer quality.

    I have 1 "Y" gun serial #1972XXX, it is a Super Pigeon.

    I know of a "Y" gun with a serial number from late '60's that had a cracked receiver.

    I never had a "Y" gun with a number 2 as the first number.

    There is no comparison between a pre-64 gun and a post-64 gun. One can feel and hear the difference between the two.

    Wayne
     
  4. acorange

    acorange Well-Known Member

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    Bvr Tail

    Buy or borrow Dave Riffle's book on the history of tha M-12 and make your own opinion.
     
  5. oldgahchamp

    oldgahchamp Active Member

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    Wayne, My "Y" has a 2 for the first digit, and according to my references it was built in 1972. I bought it new in 1973 and it had been in the dealers inventory for awhile. The only problem I EVER HAD with it was the chamber ring was too tight and Federal Papers would stick in it. There are a few "stories" associated with the chamber ring that I might tell someday if asked. Even though everyone says the Y guns were built with "cheaper" parts, I had a lot less problems with it than any of the 5 "P" guns I once owned. Larry Evans
     
  6. moore5833

    moore5833 TS Member

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    Never shot one until Tue. My opinion of them was-they make a good mailbox post if you pound them in straight. A friend wanted to shoot my K-gun so i shot his model 12,and dammint i liked it! I Shot very well with it.6 hunnerd VS 5k??,He did shoot the K-gun better than he had ever shot his 12. Perry
     
  7. oldgahchamp

    oldgahchamp Active Member

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    Perry, 6 hundred vs 5K? That's only a small piece of the pie. One of the biggest advantages is NOT having to say: Excuse me while I go get my backup gun. Larry
     
  8. brent375hh

    brent375hh TS Member

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    Yeah man, I heard that Y model were made from impported recycled beer cans from Japan. They just put nice wood on them along with jeweeling so no one would notice the "cheaper parts".

    I was amazed at the 1972 Y gun that I bought a couple of weeks ago. I took it out of the box and shot 5 rounds of trap with it, and I sure was surprised when nothing broke or wore out. I must have got a good one, because it appears as nice as any pump gun that I have owned. The fit and finish is almost as good as my cheap Japanese 101 pigeon trap.

    I will torture test it to see if it outlives me. I will even take it apart every time and see if I ever have to move the collar a tooth ahead.
     
  9. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    If you have a model 12 with a serial number before 2,000,000 it was made pre 64.many were assembled through the custom shop. The following note is from the last Winchester custom shop manager in a question about some pre 64 guns having a Y in the serial number-( anything made in later years of the production was a "Y" model and yes some of the old receivers were built and the Y added .
    With out the Y the inventory system in later years wouldn't let them out of the building
    no telling the year it was made.



    I built one 2 barrel set like that in 1993 , Don) Jeff
     
  10. Bvr Tail

    Bvr Tail Well-Known Member

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    This gun did not have the jeweled bolt and carrier, and the serial # was 19707XX, and no "Y" before serial.

    Good wood, a little out of time, but all-in-all a decent gun.

    Any more ideas?

    Danny
     
  11. eightbore

    eightbore Well-Known Member

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    Your gun is most likely a common 3 pin milled receiver Model 12 Trap. Not much more collectable than a cast receiver Y gun, but a much better gun, in my opinion. Some day, collectors may show interest in 3 pin guns, but not yet. The Super Pigeons may be the exception since they seem to be of interest to collectors, but not too many know how to recognize them.
     
  12. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    Only the 2 pin ribs were milled. 1970xx is a 1964. Jeff
     
  13. Bvr Tail

    Bvr Tail Well-Known Member

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    eight......yes it is a three pin

    Jeff.......it is a 7 digit serial no.

    Not a beautiful gun, has nice monte-carlo stock and nice figure forend.

    Another question: If it is a 1971 year model as my paper says, and my paper also says less than 1500 were made in 71, if this is true, is it more valuable?

    PS..I received this paper from Winchester years ago.

    Thanks for the help!

    Danny
     
  14. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    What you have is a three pin pre 64 factory vent rib gun. Do not think its not valuable because of the less desireable rib type. It is a "cleanup" gun ,put together in the custom shop from an order, No more valuable than another 3 pin. Considering the small percentage of Factory ribbed guns they all are fairly rare. Jeff
     
  15. Rebsmith

    Rebsmith Member

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    Bvr Tail.....The Model 12 was manufactured into 1963 when it disappeared from the catalog. They were assembled by the Product Service Department until the Custom Shop was opened. The "standard" M12 was available up until 1971 when Winchester ran out of receivers and "Super Pigeons" were available until 1971 also. The Pigeon guns were assembled in the Custom Shop and the serial numbers were preceeded by a hand-stamped "y" which indicated a Custom Shop Product. The last Pre-64 receiver was used for a presentation gun for former Secretary of the Treasury John Connely who had recently retired and moved back to New Jersey. By this time most of the small parts were of the "investment cast" process, as some were beginning in 1961. When Winchester decided to build the "new" M12, it was assembled and fitted in the Custom Shop, hence the machine stamped Y. This is why collecting M12's is so difficult without factory documentation. Winchester would supply just about anything you wanted on special order up until 1971 when the receivers ran out.

    Jere
     
  16. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    The pre 64 reievers did not " run out in 1971 " some were held back for waranty work. As stated , a pre 64 reciever was built into a new gun as late as 1993. Pre 64 recievers are before 2,000,000. Jeff
     
  17. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Mine is Y2,022,xxx, very nice investment casting reciever, jewelled bolt, and lifter. Set screw holds the rib on, in front of the front sight.



    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  18. oldgahchamp

    oldgahchamp Active Member

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    According to a magazine article I read many, many years ago, Gov. John Connely of Texas received Mod 12 sn 2000000 for some type of presentation. Larry
     
  19. fishguts

    fishguts Member

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    There is nothing wrong with a "Y" M12 and they will shoot well and break targets. But if you want to capture the essence and feel and sound of classic M12's as they were intended my HO is you need a milled rib trap from the mid-1950's and on back. Winchester started to explore cost savings in the 1950's. Their first attempt, which was a failure, was the use of the dog-legged action slide. After these dog-legged slides began to break in usage Winchester would replace them free of charge. They quit using them in the later 50's.

    Wayne
     
  20. P.Muerrle

    P.Muerrle TS Member

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    Alot of misinformation here. The Custom Shop was officially formed in 1960. As far as standard M12 Y series they were put together in the Assembly Shop not the Custom Shop. After 1964 the Y series had cast receivers. That's why you will see many of them that turn plum color. Even Winchester didn't have a solution for that. As far as clean up, the only time they did clean up with parts was in 1984 1985 when they offered a limited edition of M12s, 480 to be exact that were put out through Jaquas. They were a limited edition of engraved in Italy pigeon grades. I would know as I engraved all the pigeons on them as an outside contract. I had left the Custom Shop as an engraver a few months before. The only "y" series the Custom Shop dealt with were engraved ones as the standard checkering on these guns was machine checkered.
     
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