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model 12 out of time

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by trapm12, May 9, 2009.

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  1. trapm12

    trapm12 TS Member

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    How do you get a model 12 back in time? Is it something I can do myself or do I need to contact a gunsmith?
     
  2. wm rike

    wm rike Member

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    It can be reasoned out, but your first crack at it might be wayward. Then there's parts. Don't look over your shoulder. Best send it to Wright's and get it gone over front to back - it's not that expensive. Give them a call. Good people and service.
     
  3. J.Woolsey

    J.Woolsey Member

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    Very good advice, Simmons also does this work. Roughly $75 job.
     
  4. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    I am unfamiliar with the term 'out of time' (and generally unfamiliar with pump-guns, mostly, come to think about it).

    What does 'out of time' mean in this instance, please?


    Bob
     
  5. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    bob u wouldnt understand LOL rick
     
  6. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    <i>bob u wouldnt understand LOL rick </i>

    well, there is that ... [grump] ... (shhhhhh!)


    Bob
     
  7. over the hill

    over the hill Active Member

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    I think it means that the trigger can be pulled before the breech bolt locks up in the receiver. Slam fires are not uncommon as well. Best to let an expert check it out. A dangerous condition.

    A friend of mine said that guys in Vietnam could rapid fire a 12 by holding down the trigger and pumping the action.


    Regards....Gerald
     
  8. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Gerald, that's the way the gun was designed if I'm not mistaken. Same as the Model 97 and Ithaca 37.
     
  9. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Here's a picture of what the assy. looks like. The release button has two music wires staked into it on the inside portion that straddles the lower part of the hammer. You have to take it apart to see these wires and if ones broken or badly bent, the gun won't work properly. It's fairly simple to fix.

    <a href="http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r104/HapMecTweaks/?action=view&current=mod.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Hap
     
  10. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    I would contact Stu Wright and have him give the gun a complete "physical". Then you know everything will be done correctly. See above website. Ed
     
  11. motordoctor

    motordoctor Shoji Tabuchi in Branson

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    one test that i use is to close the action slowly while pulling and releasing the trigger many times. sometimes the hammer falls before the action is closed completely. I call that out of time. What is teh fix for it. Does it have to go to a gunsmith. I have heard many fixes. What is the problem??? motordoc
     
  12. Haskins Bill

    Haskins Bill TS Member

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    Nov 4, 2007
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    Model 12's, Win 97 and Ithaca 37 do not have disconnectors. That means if you hold the trigger and pump a round will fire as fast as you can pump it. There are probably other models out there that will do this also.
     
  13. kirbythegunsmith

    kirbythegunsmith Member

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    Jan 3, 2008
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    The term to use for a hammer fall prior to lock-up is firing out of battery. That is a sure recipe for danger and/or parts/gun destruction. Loose locking or incomplete engagement of the bolt to the frame locking notch will also destroy a gun in just a few shots. This is due to a lack of proper fit (usually a goof with a file and half of an idea) of the action slide hook and the engaging lug on the side of the hammer. I rebuild and refit those parts when the rest of the part is still functional to minimize parts replacement cost, since those parts require fitting in every instance of replacement, as a rule.

    The 2 tests of firing out of battery: pump the (EMPTY) gun open completely, then close just shy of completion of raising the tail of the bolt all the way into the locking notch, then pull the trigger to see if the hammer can fall. If no hammer fall, finish the pump stroke to close the action and verify the action slide lock is restraining movement rearward of the action slide arm. Now push the action slide release button and slightly withdraw the pump and see the tail of the bolt drop slightly- now pull the trigger again to test for hammer fall.

    Either case with a hammer fall is proof of a failure of the mechanism that ensures the longevity of the gun and primary safety of the locking action. The 2 tests also verify the type of partial or total lack of hammer lug/action slide lock hook/trigger fitting engagement, since all 3 parts must be properly fitted to ensure safe and proper function.

    The other tests of a M-12 trigger assembly would include verification of minimal play in the trigger when the safety is applied. Any significant movement available in the trigger while the safety is on demonstrates a reduction in sear edge engagement that should not occur, and an extreme case will generate a "click" when the safety on/trigger pull test is done, and pushing off the safety after the "click" (very stiff to push off, as well) will have the hammer fall and BANG if the mechanism is not pumped open prior to pushing off the safety.

    If an action lock wire spring is bent or missing, one type of malfunction would be a failure to automatically engage the locking action (restraint) of the action slide, and another would be a failure to automatically disengage the action slide (restraint) after hammer fall, depending on the spring affected. If the slide lock hook and hammer lug are properly fitted, then no firing out of battery will be possible regardless of wire spring condition.

    By the way, late model 12's (plus repro's) and 37's have disconnectors.

    I've been a Winchester shotgun gunsmith for over 20 years with experience that includes complete receiver rebuilds of Model-12's and 42's. I specialize in mechanical rework to prevent these problems that can allow dangerous operation of these fine mechanisms, plus optimize the fit and finish to improve action reliability and wear life.

    Kirby
     
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