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Model 12 in .410???

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by The Literalist, Mar 4, 2012.

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  1. The Literalist

    The Literalist Well-Known Member

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    Heck of a gun auction listed in today's paper. Absolutely makes me wish I'd hit the lottery. Many make me drool, but 2 are of particular interest. They're listed as:

    "Two Model 12s (not 42s) marked experimental #1 of 4 and #3 of 4."

    I've heard of such critters, but may have to go to the auction just to see them. I have a feeling the prices will be amazing, too.

    Anyone heard of these?
     
  2. m12superx1

    m12superx1 Member

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    I've never heard of that. I'll ask around though. Did the ad specify they were 410? If so that would be a very interesting piece to own.
     
  3. The Literalist

    The Literalist Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I guess I wasn't clear. The cutline read, "Two .410 ga. Model 12s (not 42s)"

    then: "Two Model 12s (not 42s) marked experimental #1 of 4 and #3 of 4."

    Above is a link to the auction with some (not too good) photos.
     
  4. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    Herb Orre told me there were also 5 M12's that were made in 28 gauge on a smaller frame as experimental. Production 16, 20 & 28s were all made on the same frame.
     
  5. eightbore

    eightbore Well-Known Member

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    I wonder whose "stuff" this is?
     
  6. SAK

    SAK TS Member

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    Say's Estate of Bud Frew and Ivan Hull.
     
  7. notquite27

    notquite27 TS Member

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    Why would Winchester want to build a .410 on a M12 frame when the M42 is such a slick little gun? Sounds like some Winchester engineer's wet dream.
     
  8. rick979

    rick979 Active Member

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    If these guns existed would they not be in a museum?
     
  9. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Lot's of "stories" about these guns. I've held "2of4" and could have bought it for $25g's. One story says they were built by winchester strictly as an experiment or for R&D. Another is that a gunsmith in Texas made them and are strictly "counterfeit". The third story I heard is that Winchester never made a small framed Model 12 of any kind.

    I looked this "2of4" over pretty carefully and I believe it is authentically Winchester made. The barrel stamps and the "Winchester" logo and other typical factory markings are identical to those on other Mod. 12's of the period and don't appear to be counterfeit at all but the "exp 2 of 4" was stamped with individual strokes of the hammer as you would expect it should be.

    If it was a fake it was a good one. I offered the guy $10G's for
    it and he had turned down $20g's recently. This was at a small gun shop in Edwardsville, IL in 2005. The gun shop has sinced closed and I lost track of the mysterious "Winchester Mod. 12,.410" . I keep waiting to see if it walks into the pawn shop on "PAWN STARS".
     
  10. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    I'm not surprised they are made. Why not? The 42 is nothing but a mod 12. I would love to have them but I'm alittle short this month like alot of people.

    There are some very nice guns there. Pre 64 338 win mag, Browning Grade 2 338 Win Mag, and lot of other. Wish I had the extra funds to spend. Nice auction to go to.
     
  11. m12superx1

    m12superx1 Member

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    I find it interesting that they are field grade guns with 2.5 inch chambers. If they are authentic they are worth more than I care to pay, but they are damn cool to see. Thanks for posting it. Curt
     
  12. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    I have to throw the bullshit card on the comment that the 42 is nothing but a model 12. The reason for these model 12 .410 guns would be to keep the .410 alive after droppimg the 42. The 42 has nothing in common with the model 12,NOTHING but scaled down looks. If these guns are real the collectors will come out. I am notifying the big boys.Lets see what happens. Jeff
     
  13. WS-1

    WS-1 Banned User Banned

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    I think I remember that Madis wrote something about those experimental models. My book is packed to move.
     
  14. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    What I could find out is the Mod 12 was from 1912 to 1963. The model 42 was from 1935-47. The model 12 had the 12, 16, 20, 28 ga so why not try to make a 410 to round things out. I would like to know why they didn't just keep it under the model 12 and why they did it under the model 42.
     
  15. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    Bigbore613 aka Jeff, You don't consider the front end to be similar?
     
  16. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    If you ever have had one of each and taken them apart you would know they have little in common and no parts interchange. Both were different designs by different men. Jeff
     
  17. fnj682

    fnj682 Member

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    Auctioneer, FYI, the 42 was not discontinued in 47. It was in production into the 60's.
     
  18. kirbythegunsmith

    kirbythegunsmith Member

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    Did you see this blast from the past?


    http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread_archive.cfm?ThreadID=227508


    Date: Sat, Aug 14, 2010 - 02:39 AM ET


    Stopped at the local collector gun show earlier and saw the second specimen I've seen of a .410 Model-12. Was told that the serial number placed production around 1931. Got to handle it a little, too.

    This one was marked CYL and had a solid rib, plus under the serial # was marked as experimental 1 of 4, the #2 example. Had a bolt face narrower than a 28 ga. bolt and what had to be custom extractors, as well as a small ga. magazine tube with an internal feed sleeve and shell follower to match.

    The ejector looked to be very similar to others that had been slightly altered/polished/filed. The barrel band had similar outer contours of a small ga., but an inner bore of lesser diameter to match the barrel outer diameter that was not as large as a 28 ga. Did have a definitely thick muzzle wall.

    Wish I had a camera at the time, but did get the info. from the owner, a former gun shop proprietor from IL.

    I may see if I can get pictures of that later for proof of the latest UFO (unbelievable firearm observation)- except the gun show has signs that NO CAMERAS PERMITTED or something about no photography- gotta keep those rifraff newscasters at bay somehow.

    Kirby
     
  19. Auctioneer

    Auctioneer Well-Known Member

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    I can only give you what the Blue Book said. I thought it was a longer run but I didn't find anything else. Glad you got the correct date. Both are great guns.
     
  20. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    If these 12's are of interest those parties might contact Felix Bedlan. Iam sure he can give some insight to their existence. I thought I had the number handy but can't seem to find it.
     
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