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Model 12 forged, or cast?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hinkton, Feb 21, 2011.

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  1. Hinkton

    Hinkton TS Member

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    Would someone who really knows model twelves tell me why the forged model twelves are throught to be better then the cast models.Are forged parts on the gun better then cast parts? People have different opions on this subject.The casting process for the gun has to be state of the art, knowing that the model twelve was three times the cost of the 870 remington in the seventies.There has to be a reason for this cost differance.THANK YOU
     
  2. Chipmaker

    Chipmaker Active Member

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    Castings are made by pouring molten metal into a mold, castings are rather porous and can be brittle. There are investment castings, lost wax method, centrifical cast etc these are higher quality than simple sand castings which are not the best.

    Forgings are usually done with a heated slug of alloy steel or any other metal it is struck in a die to give the rough shape of the finish product. Now the spin off thats the big plus is the striking with big tonnage is it makes the material more dense by smashing the molecules closer together. So the denser the metal the stronger it becomes. Good example are pistons for engines cast pistons cheap and easy to produce, wont take as much power, rpm, heat. forged pistons are immensely stronger more thermally stable and are used by all race and performance builders.

    So long and short of it is the forged piece hands down will be stronger than cast.
     
  3. Hill topper

    Hill topper Member

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    Chipmaker,

    I appreciated your accurate and reasoned response to the question asked.
    Excellent presentation.
    It was good to read an informed response for a change!

    ed.
     
  4. darincraft

    darincraft Member

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    Chipmaker is spot on
     
  5. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    A lot of things were forged in the past because that was the best at the time. Today castings have replaced a lot of those items because they do not need the added expense of forging. Keep in mind that forged can mean crap also. I doubt that anyone would be able to test the difference of a quality cast and heat treated M12 vs a forged one.

    Casting technology today, is light years ahead of what it was in the 1930-1960's

    Colt 1911's are forged.....Kimbers are cast

    90-T's are cast

    Rugers are cast

    Having said that, I prefer forged.....only because I can.....you will never know the difference.

    Some of the best current day Bench Rest bolt actions are cast, some are aluminum, some are billet....steel, stainless, aluminum.
     
  6. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Grain flow and alignment is an important advantage of forging.
     
  7. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    A little bit of misinformation here.

    Brian is correct. Most of what Chipmaker said is correct.

    Keep in mind, we're talking about cast steel here, not cast iron. Big difference. Most people think of cast iron engine blocks when the hear the word casting.

    If done properly, castings are NOT porous.

    Pouring molten metal into a die or a cast produces an less than optimum grain structure. An even grain structure means that there are stress points at "corners" that make the casting weak at that point, because the grain can't go "around" the corner. (think of cutting a square notch out of a 2x6 wood joist...now you have a weak point at the corners of that notch.)

    However castings are not all bad. In my industry, we use castings for large valves that are used in steam pipelines that continuously see 3,600 psi and 1,100°F steam. We use castings in this service because forgings, in large sizes, tend to be much more costly.

    Forging involves pounding metal, sometimes cold, sometimes hot, often with large hydraulic rams, in a process called plastic deformation, to rearrange the shape and the grain structure of the piece. Once forged, your grain structure is more continuous, contours to the shape of the piece, and can "go around" corners, making it stronger than a casting. Forging does not appreciably change the density of the metal. A forged piece is tougher (less likely to break) than a casting of the same shape.

    Generally speaking, if you use a forging, you don't need as much metal to achieve the same strength.

    To get equal strength with a casting of the same shape, you will often need to use a higher strength alloy.

    Like 221 said, given the stated of the technology at the time those model 12's were made, the forged receivers were indeed stronger, tougher, and more durable than the equivalent cast receivers.

    Either one will probably take a couple of lifetimes to wear out.
     
  8. Chipmaker

    Chipmaker Active Member

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    OK TimB99 I'll bite you said most of what I said was correct, now enlighten me on what is in correct. I made no mention of cast iron in my statement, so I will assume that was not directed toward me. I think you said it all Your industry has used casting for valve bodies for a long long time, both in gray iron and in your case I would think your using cast stainless steel. Without digging in hours of research to prove a point I'll bet there is no cast material that can equal itself in a forged version for tensile, yield, or elongation. READ "equal itself"
     
  9. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Chipmaker,

    Your post was good.

    The only thing you said I can take issue with is that forging changes the density of the metal. All I said is that it doesn't change the density appreciably.

    If your casting has porosity, it may seem to be less dense than a forging because of that porosity.

    " there is no cast material that can equal itself in a forged version for tensile, yield, or elongation"

    Can't disagree with that.
     
  10. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Porosity (inclusions) etc. are not restricted to castings!!
     
  11. sasquach

    sasquach Member

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    A good example of this are Ruger revolvers vs Smith or Colt. Both are plenty strong, but Ruger frames have more mass. As to the model 12's, both are more than adequate as to strength, but if you shoot them much you will notice that there is a different "feel" and "sound" to the Y models.

    Allen
     
  12. southjblue

    southjblue Active Member

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    So---Which is better---The (Y) or the 2 pin and which feels better?---SJB---
     
  13. b12

    b12 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the first model 12's were made from bar stock and machined complete. I don't know if this was true but if it was it seems that the reciever would have been supieror to forage or cast. Does this sound right or not. Thanks Bill
     
  14. sasquach

    sasquach Member

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    I feel the older pre 64 guns are smoother and have a more solid feel to them. Just my opinion. I think some of the pigeon grade guns made after 64 used left over receivers and parts from the older guns. I think it was more than the receivers that were cast on the "Y" models. Even they are head and shoulder in quality above any other pump gun available, in my opinion.
     
  15. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Has anybody ever heard of cast reciprocating parts in a race engine? How about military aircraft landing gear?
     
  16. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    Toolmaker hit it in the head. The ONLY reason things are cast instead of forged is to save money, not to make a better part.
     
  17. Chipmaker

    Chipmaker Active Member

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    Forging Advantages

    Part Integrity

    1. Directional Strength
    By mechanically deforming the heated metal under tightly controlled conditions, forging produces predictable and uniform grain size and flow characteristics. Forging stock is also typically pre-worked to refine the dendritic structure of the ingot and remove defects or porosity. These qualities translate into superior metallurgical and mechanical qualities, and deliver increased directional strength in the final part.

    Cross section of continuous grain flow of custom forged contoured ring.


    2. Structural Strength
    Forging also provides a degree of structural integrity that is unmatched by other metalworking processes. Forging eliminates internal voids and gas pockets that can weaken metal parts. By dispersing segregation of alloys or nonmetallics, forging provides superior chemical uniformity. Predictable structural integrity reduces part inspection requirements, simplifies heat treating and machining, and ensures optimum part performance under field-load conditions.

    3. Impact Strength
    Parts can also be forged to meet virtually any stress, load or impact requirement. Proper orientation of grain flow assures maximum impact strength and fatigue resistance. The high-strength properties of the forging process can be used to reduce sectional thickness and overall weight without compromising final part integrity.

    Grain Flow Comparison
    Forged Bar:
    Directional alignment through the forging process has been deliberately oriented in a direction requiring maximum strength. This also yields ductility and resistance to impact and fatigue.
    Machined Bar:
    Unidirectional grain flow has been cut when changing contour, exposing grain ends. This renders the material more liable to fatigue and more sensitive to stress corrosion cracking.
    Cast Bar:
    No grain flow or directional strength is achieved through the casting process.

    Part Flexibility
    1. Variety of Sizes
    Limited only to the largest ingot that can be cast, open die forged part weights can run from a single pound to over 400,000 pounds. In addition to commonly purchased open die parts, forgings are often specified for their soundness in place of rolled bars or castings, or for those parts that are too large to produce by any other metalworking method.

    2. Variety of Shapes
    Shape design is just as versatile, ranging from simple bar, shaft and ring configurations to specialized shapes. These include multiple O.D./I.D. hollows, single and double hubs that approach closed die configurations, and unique, custom shapes produced by combining forging with secondary processes such as torch cutting, sawing and machining. Shape designs are often limited only by the creative skills and imagination of the forging supplier.

    3. Metallurgical Spectrum
    Forgings can be produced from literally all ferrous and non-ferrous metals. The forging process itself can be adjusted-through the selection of alloys, temperatures, working methods and post-forming techniques-to yield virtually any desired metallurgical property.

    4. Quantity and Prototype Options
    Virtually all open die and rolled ring forgings are custom made one at a time, providing the option to purchase one, a dozen or hundreds of parts as needed. An added benefit is the ability to offer open die prototypes in single piece or low volume quantities. No better way exists to test initial closed die forging designs, because open die forging imparts similar grain flow orientation, deformation, and other beneficial characteristics. In addition, the high costs and long lead times associated with closed die tooling and set-ups are eliminated.
     
  18. Chipmaker

    Chipmaker Active Member

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    Toolmaker 251 Most of the aircraft landing gear parts that I am familiar with have been made from a forging. I'm not saying something for them is or has not been cast. Lots of forged Titanium goodies on the newest fighter aircraft.
     
  19. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    More trying to pick the fly specks out of the pepper!

    Hey kiddies ... they are made out of steel! A hell of a lot stronger than aluminum! AND ... the 870s and 1100s don't seem to fall apart from wear or weakness.

    Just one more thing for the intellectual midgets to argue about!
     
  20. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Yes chipmaker, that's what I was implying when I asked the question about aircraft landing gear. When I retired from T&D work in 2002 I spent 17 months working with a engineering Co. that was doing modifications to the B1B bomber and the F16 landing gear. All the gear was either forged aluminum and 17-4 or 13-8 stainless, and all the material certification work weighed as much as the gear.
     
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