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Model 12 authenticity

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by John Stefanowicz, Nov 5, 2008.

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  1. John Stefanowicz

    John Stefanowicz TS Member

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    How can I obtain "factory papers" that could give me the specifications of this 28 gauge when it left the factory, for example, the type of engraving, checkering, and who originally purchased it and when? The serial numbers match, wear and rebluing is evident, but I question whether it still might be "too good". No history could be gotten from the seller except to acknowledge that it had been reblued. The serial number is from 1955. Thanks. John
     
  2. dave-320c

    dave-320c Banned User Banned

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    John:
    As far as I know, there are no existing factory records for the model 12.
    This was confirmed recently by the Cody Museum to the same type of inquiry that I made.
    Look up Dave Riffle, who has a lot of knowledge on Model 12s', and who I have found to be very helpful.
    Dave
     
  3. John Stefanowicz

    John Stefanowicz TS Member

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    Thanks, Dave. John
     
  4. g7777777

    g7777777 Active Member

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    The 28 gauge is the most "made up" model made- because you could use the same receiver that 16 gauge and 20 gauge use I believe

    there is a big difference in value - a big premium for true 28 gauge guns

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  5. John Stefanowicz

    John Stefanowicz TS Member

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    Gene, thanks for your thoughts. I am aware of some of the pitfalls with a 28 ga
    and how its all got to do with rarity of production. But is a 28 done at the factory any better than one done 10-20 years after production, and for the sake of argument, by the Winchester Custom Shop, and, how can a guy tell. Its almost like if you pay a high enough price, you will believe in the "true" value of the gun, either to praise yourself for your find, or justify your foolishness/wishfulness. Dilemma. And that's why I started this post. John
     
  6. g7777777

    g7777777 Active Member

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    your other option is to buy a later browning or win reproduction model 12 in 28 gauge

    then you dont have to worry about it

    Gene
     
  7. birdbuster

    birdbuster TS Member

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    So are all the engraved models engraved after they left the factory?
     
  8. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Winchester had in house engravers and also farmed some out. Jeff
     
  9. John Stefanowicz

    John Stefanowicz TS Member

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    Jeff, that leads me to believe that there very well could have been some variation to a nominal 12-5 engraving, by either the choice of the engraver or the customer. Would you agree? John
     
  10. g7777777

    g7777777 Active Member

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    I dont think there is any variation to a factory engraving pattern-- now you could get custom engraving but if you ordered a factory pattern- you got exactly that

    It wouldnt be logical for someone to pay for custom engraving and then just do a small variation on a factory pattern

    I am sure some Win experts will comment here

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  11. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Absolutely , the engraving that was farmed out usually was custom and done by Master engravers.Engravings evolved from the start, An early gun with Factory engraving will be much different from a late gun and also differ slightly from each engraver Also there were differences in the Model 12 and Model 42. Sometimes they were interchanged for a customer using the different animals. Pauline Murrelle , the last surviving Winchester engraver is best IMHO for authenticity. Jeff
     
  12. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    I had someone inquire as to the authenticity of a M-12 28ga pidgeon skeet. The owner was asking $6500....but no papers. Ther owner claimed the gun was given to Texas Governor John Connally, from Winchester.

    I offered up half of the Cody record check, but he refused to go on halves. I think he was pulling someone's leg.

    My question is....would the Cody museum have a record of the 28ga serial number and, MAYBE a record from Winchester to whom this gun was sent to?

    Doug
     
  13. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Almost all model 12 records were lost. Some of the engravers personal logs are available.They obviously are of only the guns they engraved. Jeff
     
  14. Gary Waalkes

    Gary Waalkes Well-Known Member

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    Never play another man's game for money. More than 2 million model 12s were produced. I do not believe the model 12 is on the list of guns that the Winchester museum in Cody can research. Most records after 1907 were destroyed in a fire in 1961. So if the buyer did not keep it (paperwork), there is no way to actually prove originality. But if we just take it a face value that it is a true factory 28 gauge, a re-blue usually blows any collector value (there are exceptions but I don't think this is one).

    Contact information for the winchester museum is: Cody Firearms Museum,720 Sheridan Ave., Cody WY 82414.
     
  15. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    The reblue would had to have been done by Winchester to not hurt actual pricing of piece, atleast for me and I know many others. Typically once a piece is reblued by an out_of_house source it becomes just a shooter.
     
  16. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, the gauge is stamped on the rear of the receiver. Remove the stock.
     
  17. claybrdr

    claybrdr Well-Known Member

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    One of the "experts" on Model 12s is also a champ at "making up" Winchesters to various degrees. He has shoveled some serious BS to both me and another friend over the years while maintaining a high profile as an authority.
     
  18. John Stefanowicz

    John Stefanowicz TS Member

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    And that gentleman would be from what state? John
     
  19. Bruce Specht

    Bruce Specht Well-Known Member

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    An interesting post, I own Mod 12 Pigeon Grade with # 5 engraving and A carved wood it is a trap model built in 1927 by the serial #. The numbers are matching and the gun until it got to me was never fired. That's not the case now. I bought both the current books on the Mod 12, Riffles and the other one can't remember the authors name but he worked for Winchester; Riffels account would have my gun to old for the engraving style but the other authors book shows the engraving style as time correct. Thoguhts?
     
  20. camshaft

    camshaft TS Member

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