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Model 12 Advice; repair?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bruce Em, Jun 8, 2009.

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  1. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Jan 29, 1998
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    Location:
    Upstate NY
    I just picked up a 1960 3 pin Model 12 Trap that I probably paid too much for but liked very much. The problem is the chamber ring was changed and is smaller than the chamber diameter. Not a lot but you can feel it and see it in fired shells. It shoots great but extraction is tougher due to the case swell.

    How difficult is the ring to ream? can it be done in place or does it need to be removed first? I would immagine removal has a whole host of issues with replacement ie headspace etc. Is it expensive to have professionally repaired?

    Someone else bought it before me and I see why they returned it.

    all comments appreciated.
     
  2. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    There is a special reaming tool that goes in through the ejection port while the gun is assembled. Find someone who has one. Jeff
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Wrights can fix it for you. Hap
     
  4. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
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    Get in touch with Nu-Line Guns in Rhineland MO. They specialize in Winchester and are known for their work on the Model 12. They rebuild them and make them look like brand new. Been in business since 1949. The have a parts list with prices on line and exploded views.

    www.nulineguns.com
    Nu-Line Guns, Inc.
    8150 County Road 4055
    Rhineland MO 65069
    Ph 573 676 6500
    fax 573 676 3400
     
  5. kirbythegunsmith

    kirbythegunsmith Member

    Joined:
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    The chamber ring problem may be several possibilities alone or in combination. An alignment issue may be present for various reasons, a size differential due to a change-out of a used ring to replace a bad original ring, and the main chamber may also be oversize to a point of problems just due to size.

    If the chamber has excessive diameter, reaming the chamber ring to fit will allow the entire head to expand rather than the section beyond the chamber ring. In that case, the chamber needs to be sleeved to a minimum size and then the chamber ring might not need any alteration or just need minimal fit on a high spot.

    If there is an alignment problem (especially due to a used ring being substituted) then there may not be enough material to recut and true the mis-alignment before making the chamber ring and barrel chamber section oversize. Then it would be chamber ring plus chamber sleeve instead of just chamber ring.

    Other issues could be a possibility but not easily noticed by shooters, and the repairs needed already show that you need a specialist.

    I've been reworking these classics for close to 30 years and have the spare chamber rings and cutter sets. When Browning had a group of mismatched Model-12 20 ga. guns, they had me fit the new chamber rings to make the guns right for the new owners. Browning had saved on some expenses by shipping the front ends not boxed with the frame section, but then the random assembling later made alignment issues inevitable for some.

    Kirby
     
  6. blaster

    blaster Member

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    I would send it to roger eubanks. He a very good winchester guy.
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bruce Em- Sounds to me like Kirby is the one to take a look at your gun. You mentioned that the chamber ring problem is most noticeable when extracting a fired shell. First, I would make sure that you do not have a shell problem. Many discount shells with steel heads will not extract well from many guns. The problem seems to be a slightly over sized chamber with these shells. Try some new/reloads with brass heads to eliminate the possibility that the problem is with the steel heads. If you use shells with brass heads, ignore everything I have written above.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. mike holland

    mike holland Member

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    Hey Kirby,
    Whats your average turn around time on doing this work ? Mike in NC
     
  9. grunt

    grunt TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    TTT
     
  10. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Thanks, You guys are the best!

    I shot it with reload AA and STS and didnt notice the trouble but they were low pressure loads.

    With factory Fiocchi papers and Remmy Gun Clubs there is difficulty.

    I will try factory AA and STS for the record and proceed from there.

    Kirby, I understand if you cant answer this without seeing the gun, but what is a ball park estimate for this fix? ie a minimum and a max est if you can.

    The seller may have known of the defect, I found the previous buyer who returned it, and he knew.

    regards
     
  11. paul e. stark

    paul e. stark TS Member

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    110
    might need a new receiver! there is one for sale in here for three grand!
     
  12. kirbythegunsmith

    kirbythegunsmith Member

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    The repair turnaround time here does depend on the workload at the time of entry, but I have been using certain job parameters to move things to the front of the line.

    A small job the needs no parts ordered or doesn't take long is normally completed immediately, if possible. Recently I have done some cleanings the same day and recoil pads etc. the same or next day, with some piddling jobs done while the shooter went for a quick run to the hardware store.

    A while back when I posted about bulge and barrel dent repair, one shooter sent me a barrel to fix some dents and a M-12 trigger assembly in need of a rebuild. I got his check after the estimate and mailed the pair out within a week of job arrival. I don't take credit cards, so don't expect payment to arrive by phone- sorry.

    If a chamber sleeve is necessary, the cost can range around $150 or so, but whether I can make it work with the existing chamber ring is where knowledge and experience at doing these things aids in economical and serviceable completion.

    See some of my previous postings here to see more work examples and explanations.

    For example, I have had to rework M-12 trigger assemblies that were unsafe and/or impossible to work the action slide lock to open the bolt, and typically can rework the existing parts to save replacement cost, as well.

    Some parts that were replaced: hammer buffed by goof trying to smooth the trigger pull, hammer sear surface welded and rough-shined that ruined the trigger as well.

    <a href="http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x109/kirbythegunsmith/?action=view&current=Polishbuffsear.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    <a href="http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x109/kirbythegunsmith/?action=view&current=Polishbuffsears.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    I can reply to general questions of interest that may be interesting or helpful to multiple readers here.
    I will try to answer specific issues brought to my attention at my e-mail or you can call the shop number at the website.

    Kirby
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Kirby- I also have some jobs that need to be done. If you will give me a price for doing this work, then I will tell you what work needs to be done.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. kirbythegunsmith

    kirbythegunsmith Member

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    I am willing to make estimates of price for specific jobs, but the rub usually comes when the inspection finds the repair to be markedly different from the initial expectation. If there is not much variance, nobody is surprised, but if some unknown situation is present (but possibly hidden from view, like an inside wood crack under a sidelock of a shotgun (actually had a hidden repair I found for an unknowing owner of a higher grade import S x S) then there would need to be an adjustment.

    That is one reason that I tend to archive unusual details to show later, if necessary. Anybody seen any trigger/hammers that bad, recently?

    You might be stunned by some of the other defects that I've found right from the factories (and regrettably, some of those defects were from Winchester, too) or that have been created or exacerbated by neglectful owners.

    Anybody that has specific questions can e-mail me or call the number posted at the website.

    I usually expect that a conversation beats any one way communications if more than just a few simple questions need discussion.

    Thanks. Kirby
     
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