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MN State Team Qualification changes

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dan S., Apr 11, 2010.

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  1. Dan S.

    Dan S. TS Member

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    Having just read the letter sent to clubs in Minnesota regarding the changes in State Team qualification targets, I must say it left me a little confused. It directly addresses "concerns" related to shooting targets at Marathons in Minnesota. It states that clubs throwing marathon targets are giving an unfair benefit against "competiton" shooters and goes on to describe * (asterisked) shoots whose targets "will" qualify for State Team membership whereas Marathon targets will not.
    I'm not even going to go into whether I think this is right or not. But I would like to know this, as a Minnesota shooter, who "might" decide to run for the State Team, do I have to keep 2 seperate average cards? The newsletter states that marathon targets will not apply to State Team averages, only to personal totals. SO if I go to a few (asterisked) shoots, they can't figure my marathon targets in my average at qualifying, in their own words, "they don't count. Neil, what say you??
     
  2. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Good grief, what a kerfuffle this will turn out to be. I wonder if MN is the first state to not count marathon targets toward a State Team.
     
  3. Dan S.

    Dan S. TS Member

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    What was also interesting was the reference to Marathons as rapidly growing and turning Minnesota into a Marathon State. Is giving trapshooters a less expensive venue to shoot a bad thing? Personally, I don't shoot enough anymore to seriously pursue a Team ranking. But the score keeping will be a definate "SNAFU".
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    MB, I think you must have seen a different version than I, but still, I can't imagine you were "confused" by it. It could hardly be more clear. Some shooting is worthy of respect; some isn't. Same with shooters. What's confusing about that?

    Neil
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The newsletter made it clear that this is a proposal, not yet a fact, I hope. I believe it is on the agenda for consideration at the May 2nd special meeting of the BOD at the Minneapolis Gun Club. The MTA did the right thing to make it public so the membership can comment, if so inclined, before anything is done about it.

    Neil
     
  6. Dan S.

    Dan S. TS Member

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    So Neil, straight up, the targets at Marathons are "easier" than at "Real" Tournaments???
    How will the scores be kept seperate was main concern?
     
  7. Dan S.

    Dan S. TS Member

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    You are correct about some shooters being worthy of respect and some not so much. I don't know how that ties to my question which you seem to have missed (or would that be a loss) lol. Anyway, won't this lead to "confusion" at the squadding table unless two seperate cards are used?
     
  8. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    Has nothing to do w/ classification/squading. Only affects the state team. Whoever is figuring the state team members will have to disregard marathon scores in computing the average for the year.
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    MB, as I say, I may well have read a different text than was sent out to the clubs. In fact, I think I must have. For example, the one I read never made any claim that "marathon" targets are easier than "trophy shoot" targets.

    And there couldn't have been. I doubt anyone could fairly claim that the marathon targets I shot at Buffalo early in February and again early in March were easier than, say, those at the State Shoot, if only because none of the people who will likely vote on this were there with me and so could competently judge the difficulty of the targets on those days.

    Though is is _not_ part of the proposal, and no claim along these lines is made in it, I personally think that while target difficulty is about the same, it's easier to put up a string of really high scores at a marathon than at a trophy shoot. Often in the latter you are just getting rolling when the event concludes, while in the former you can capitalize on a day when you are really shooting well and the birds seem to be breaking like magic. In my case my last five 99's in doubles were shot at marathons and 98 is probably my high elsewhere in the same time period.

    Among the target-difficulty differences cited in the proposal is this one called Weather factor.

    "Weather factor: An asterisk (*) assigned MTA tournament based on the total number of shooters registered, the total number of squads listed and the total number of events that day, have a predetermined time limit to complete each ATA event once that event has started.

    With a predetermined amount of time for each event, (with regards to the number of squads, and the number of events), all shooters attend a specific tournament are subject to the same weather conditions and and "the weight factor of direct competition". This clearly levels the playing field for for all participants."

    That's about the only reference I can find in the proposal which even tangentially alludes to target difficulty as a factor in ignoring marathon targets.

    State team requirements are up to the states and provinces. Averages are up to the ATA. Your average is the the number of targets hit in each type of event: singles, handicap, & doubles, divided by the number of targets shot-at.

    So there can't be two kinds of cards, two kinds of averages, any of that when the task is classification. Your average is what it is and will lead you to be placed in an appropriate class no matter where the scores were shot. It's only after the end of the target year, when the State Teams are calculated, that the unworthy scores will be weeded out.

    I hope this answers your question.

    Neil
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Hitapair, have you read the proposal? There's a good deal more to it than just that.

    Neil
     
  11. Dan S.

    Dan S. TS Member

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    Neil, Thank You, yes, that explains it much better. I also had my first 100 in doubles at a Marathon. I admit I tend to read between the lines but when the text says "True competition targets" to make the difference between them, I don't know how else to take that reference.
     
  12. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    Yes Neil, I have. Yes there is more to it than that. However Blaster asked a question about classifying and having 2 cards and I believe I answered his question correctly. Nothing more, nothing less. Are you inplying that I did not answer his question correctly??
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, yes, Hitapair. I think your last sentence is so incomplete as to be inaccurate. Again, my copy may be an early one, but it's not just marathon targets which won't be counted. The way I read it, if I go to the Rough Rider, or the $1000 dollar shoot at Cedar Falls, for example, they won't count either. Do I have that wrong?

    Neil
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    One of the added things I wondered about, Hitapair, is your professional opinion of the following text:

    "This revised Minnesota State Team qualifying standard when adopted, will become the "new" Minnesota State Team Qualification "Standard of Excellence." It will remain in effect until September 1, 2020."

    I'm wondering about the last sentence. Does the presently-sitting BOD have the power to restrict the powers of succeeding BOD's to change State Team requirements as this one will have done if this is adopted?

    At the ATA, the answer has been "No." Is it different in Minnesota?

    I am thinking specifically about this section of the MTA By-Laws:

    "3.6. POWERS –

    3.6.a. The Board of Directors shall have the power to conduct, manage and control the affairs and business of the corporation, and to make rules and regulation not consistent with the laws of the United States and the State of Minnesota in which it operates, the certificate of incorporation, the Article of Incorporation, the rules and regulations of the ATA, and Bylaws of the corporation."

    I expect this applies to _any_ sitting BOD and I don't see anything in there to the effect ". . . except when a previously-sitting BOD has restricted their "power to conduct, manage and control the affairs and business of the corporation, and to make rules and regulation not consistent with the laws of the United States and the State of Minnesota in which it operates, the certificate of incorporation, the Article of Incorporation, the rules and regulations of the ATA, and Bylaws of the corporation."


    Neil
     
  15. Bigbird

    Bigbird TS Member

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    When does Cedar Falls have a 1000.00 shoot?
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that the one which is held about first of June? Mike M once left our squad at the Great Lakes Grand and that's where I understood he was going. I could have it wrong, of course. I _do_ know there's a Rough Rider shoot; I've been to it.

    Neil
     
  17. Kooz25

    Kooz25 TS Member

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    I would like to respond to up North MN. You could not be more correct.This has been my question for many new proposals. How does this promote trap shooting in MN. Unfortunately there are too many shooters that still think like it is 1960, We need to change with the times and attract as many new shooters as we can. We need to think of the future and quit thinking about personal agendas

    Kooz
     
  18. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    I see nothing in the proposal that would exclude marathon targets or targets shot out of state from figuring into your current average or current yardage for classification purposes when you go to be classified. As long as you meet the 700/700/500 min target requirements your Iowa and No Dak shoots that you named will be figured in to your ave for MN State Team purposes.

    The proposal also deals with the clubs that are running marathon shoots that don't comply with ATA rules and/or are sending phantom scores into the ATA. In the past, nobody in power chose to deal with that problem.

    Finally, the proposal, if implemented will remain in effect until 2020 unless amended or repealed prior to that time. I suspect there will be some amendments tweeking it as time goes on. Whether it gets repealed will likely depend on who is running the MTA.
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Hitapair, I'm having trouble squaring your assurances:

    "As long as you meet the 700/700/500 min target requirements your Iowa and No Dak shoots that you named will be figured in to your ave for MN State Team purposes."

    with my copy of the proposal. I'm typing this from page 4.

    "General Requirement - qualifying tournaments

    From this day forward, there will be two (2) specific options for Minnesota Registered Trapshooters to qualify for their respective State Teams each year.

    Option #1) Qualifying National ATA tournaments will be the Grand American Trapshooting Tournament, ATA Satellite Grand American Tournaments or ATA State Tournaments. These tournaments qualify as *asterisk tournaments and will be used to qualify for the Minnesota State Teams.

    Option #2) Qualifying ATA tournaments in the State of Minnesota will be assigned an *asterisk on the Minnesota State Trapshooting schedule. These tournaments will be used to qualify for the Minnesota State Teams."

    That's all there is there is no Option 3) as in fact we were warned at the top " there will be two (2) specific options. . ."

    The two shoots I mentioned are not in Minnesota, nor are the the Grand, Satellite Grands, or State Shoots. So how can they "be figured in to your ave for MN State Team purposes?"

    Thank you for your response to the other question. But I can't see how the outcome is any different whether they include that provision or not. Wouldn't it stay in effect unless changed anyway? So it's basically meaningless, at least in terms of trying to prevent changes, right? And if so, is it even a good idea, since without future action of a board, the "new" rules would presumably revert to the "old" rules on 1 September, 2020?

    Neil
     
  20. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    Somewhere in what you are looking at there is a paragraph that states:
    Shooters must register 700 singles, 700 handicap, and 500 doubles in those ATA National tournaments or the asterik * assigned tournaments on the Minnesota State Trapshooting schedule for that year. What I have in front of me has that wording 2 paragraphs down from the opton 2 wording.
    This paragraph is referring back to the option 1 and option 2 you mentioned. If you meet the 700/700/500 with either option 1 or option 2 targets, your remaining 1800, 800 and 500 targets to reach the State team plateau minimums, can be shot out of state but cannot be marathon targets. (These are obviously the target attainment requirements for the mens team) IN Addition you also have to meet the other 2 requirements being shooting the HAA at either the State or Zone shoot and the 4 gun club requirement. Believe those are present requirements and nothing new there.
     
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