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Michigan State Shoot/Penalty Classification

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Beancounter, Jul 10, 2007.

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  1. Beancounter

    Beancounter TS Member

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    Two very different points of view, Pete. My Grand American program is still sticking with the "normal" handicap penalty = 25 yards. If it is good enough for the ATA with thousands of bucks (options) up for grabs, perhaps it should be good enough for state orgs as well.

    On the other side, a State BOD usually puts in a rule that is designed to encourage more local shooting. Perhaps they looked at the data and found out that too many "state shoot" entrants are long yardage shooters that practice a lot but don't register targets any more. Perhaps they are trying to encourage more registered shooting from this group.

    I don't have enough information to make a judgement, I can only say that I understand both points of view.
     
  2. t-bar

    t-bar Member

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    Hi Pete,

    Maybe they were applying the known ability rule. Glad you are shooting again.

    I do agree with your point of view though.

    Hope to see you out West sometime.

    Barb
     
  3. trapshooteraa27aa

    trapshooteraa27aa Well-Known Member

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    Pete, Was great to see you again. We had alot of fun through the years. Hey if your still interested in that 64 chevelle I have e-mail me.
    Chris Teeters
     
  4. trapshooteraa27aa

    trapshooteraa27aa Well-Known Member

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    Pete, Give me a call 517-320-1970 or give me your number so we can get with each other down the road or an e-mail addy.
    Chris
     
  5. JRW

    JRW Member

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    Pete glad you are back to shooting. I trust you got your ATA card I turned it in at classafication. Jerry in MI.
     
  6. JRW

    JRW Member

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    ttt
     
  7. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    Why??
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    cuzela A quick question. If my yardage is 23 And "25 has always been the established penalty yardage" why do I get 2yds and you get nothing? If we each have 500 targets and the target requirements are 1000 why must I shoot penalty and you get a Walk? Section VI The ATA Handicap System paragraph F says as long as it is in the program it is legal and part of established practices.

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The reason is just as Bill explains. If you are on the 20 and lack the targets you go to 22. If on the 25, to the 27. What's fairer than that? It's not that way at the Grand because the BOD wouldn't pass it at the last meeting, though I made the motion to do so. Maybe this year.

    Neil
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pete, penalty is not just to catch unknown sharpshooters. Penalty is mostly to encourage participation at local shoots and to insure that a shooter has "anted" with some daily fees before he withdraws in the form of trophies and added money.

    Sure you paid your fees last year, but you had your chance at the trophies they bought last year as well. But that money's gone. This year your contribution to the MTA/ATA's treasury is no different from someone who just joined.

    The full discussion of penalty and its purposes is at the link above, lines 705 and following.

    Neil
     
  11. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    cuzela it is very hard to believe you have almost 100,000 lifetime handicap targets and you don't know the difference between added money, trophies and targets only.

    Bob Lawless
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pete, the trophies and added money are just part of the cost of running a state association, As you must know, the MTA has taken on big debt upgrading their home grounds. The ones who have shot the target minimums have helped pay for that too, if nor in Michigan, then in some other state.

    Once again, if you want to get something this year, you have to have given this year or shoot farther back. It's up to you.

    Neil
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Sure, Pete, no problem, and I'm glad you have your targets now. That's all we are after, you know. I, personally, hate to put someone farther back than I know they should be shooting, but with the new requirement at the Grand - 1000 this year, just can't see that it's all that big a task.

    I only wish I'd been able to get the BOD last year to worry less about the unknown sharpshooter you cite - named at the meeting as being from Kentucky, by the Delegate from that state, no less - and more about treating everyone the same. I think Michigan has the right idea. If a 2o-yarder doesn't have the targets, he goes to 22. If a longer-yardage shooter doesn't either, why shouldn't he move back as well? Same for classes. In the past we moved the worst shooters back and left the best shooters alone. What was the sense on that?

    I'm sure that few have read the program and there'll be a heck of a squawk when someone, coasting in A for years, finds herself in AAA. All I can say to her is "When worse happened to D shooters for decades, where was your outrage then?"

    The central zone has used a similar system (to the present Grand one) for years and it causes no problems whatever.

    I hope you aren't telling me that the Michigan Singles had fewer shooters than 600 they had in 92. Minnesota had close to that number this year and we don't have nearly the shooter base you have.

    It may be that the target year will be changed by the BOD at the Grand to November-November. If that happens, states may have to adjust their target minimums, since fall shooting will be in the previous year. Really, they are so low in Minnesota now I can't see what difference it would make but Arizona and Florida may want to think about it.

    A solution, and the one I advocate for Minnesota if we do anything at all, would be to raise them a bit and include the previous two years. This would go half-way to addressing your main complaint, that other years should count. For the Grand we've just made it clean, this year only, no "lookback" to require last year as well. The reason was that we need to establish a new shooter base around Sparta, similar, over time, to what existed around Vandalia. Two thousand singles, 2000 handicap, 1500 doubles was just too high for the beginning shooters we hope to attract and going to the Grand as a new shooter and finding yourself, doomed, as A,25,A would drive away the very people we are trying to court.

    Thank you for bringing this up on TS.com so many can see the complications, conflicting interests, and hard choices and reasoning which go into what appears to be just a line or two in a shoot program.

    Neil
     
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