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measurements for poi

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by smsnyder, Aug 22, 2007.

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  1. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    what is the normal measuremants in inches for poi at 32 to 35 yards? thanks
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    It will vary based on how high your gun shoots. And, at 35 yards the precise center of the pattern cannot be determined. POI is easiest to determine at 13 yards. If your POI is 2 inches high at 13 yards, the gun will be shooting around 70/30.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    SM;

    If you are asking how high our guns shoot, the answers will be all over the map. Generally, shooters who prefer their guns to shoot very high are more experienced, have faster swing speeds and shoot targets nearer the house when their rate of climb is greater.

    For newer and intermediate shooters without precise swings, high-shooting guns make it more difficult to judge exactly how far under targets the muzzle is as the sight picture is created and how far under it needs to be to break targets, especially at varying distances and angles.

    Add to that occasional targets shot as they approach their maximum height and the correct sight picture becomes even more difficult to determine because the targets' rate of climb lessens.

    Rollin

    Rollin
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Rollin and sm, but mostly sm:

    The post "Generally, shooters who prefer their guns to shoot very high are more experienced, have faster swing speeds and shoot targets nearer the house when their rate of climb is greater." makes it sound like the better you are, the higher the gun should shoot. This is a mistake. It should shoot as high as your style requires it to shoot.

    And it's an pernicious, even destructive mistake. Too many people who want to get better think they need a high-shooting gun and get one and shoot worse. If they get a really high-shooting gun they can hardly hit anything at all.

    There's a whole range of POI's which will hit most of the targets. Some advocate judging the "smoke" and that's OK but the question is:

    Do you want smoke or fewer losses?

    I like the latter, and so favor a POI which lets me shoot a little over, a little under, and still get a dead target. If the above-mentioned shooters end up with a gun with which they can shoot under the target by a mile and still get get a chip but if they are over by an inch it's lost, then they have sacrificed good scores for a questionable theory and wrecked their shooting trying to mimic a style intended for someone else, sm.

    Neil
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Neil, very good advice for new and experienced trapshooters!! So many shooters just take for granted a guns numbers (inches/percent wise) and try adapting their style of shooting to those. Personal timing to the target and the vertical rate of climb (target) is mostly ignored when searching for one that works best for them. It's more accurate to point your finger at an object than (guess) how far under it you may be?

    Another mis-conception. A shotguns stock and comb may be set just right for one person. He says my gun shoots xxx on paper. Whether or not another shooter can shoot the same gun depends on the other shooters cheek bone relationship to the comb. High cheek bone people require a higher comb to align the eye pupil correctly. Those with lower cheek bones, the lower the comb hight. My best comb hight is 1-1/8 inches parallel while my brothers is closer to 1-3/8ths!! I can't shoot his gun, nor can he shoot mine! Hap
     
  6. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Hap, Neil,

    So if your rib has double beads, if you line the beads in a figure 8, why would the gun shoot to any other POI, regardless of the shooter? It seems to me the point of aim is the same because each shooter aligns the beads the same. Raising or lowering the comb would show more or less rib and make it easier or harder to align the beads. Is there an error in this logic?

    Thanks,

    Mike
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Mike- There is an error, not in your logic but in your thoughts about aligning the beads into a figure 8. Many, perhaps most, shooters do not do this and many who do, should not. The comb and rib should be adjusted so the gun shoots where you look. The bead configuration required to do this is irrelevant.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Mike, the differences are as I pointed out above with the way my comb is set for me and my brothers. There are differences, one being the measurement between our cheek bone and the center of our eye pupil. I'd have to lower my comb quite a bit for him to align the beads, I'd have to raise his comb to align his. My gun as it's set would shoot way high for most shooters.

    Like my friend says, most shooters pay way too much attention to that mid-bead, instead of making the gun pattern where it should for you. Hap
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with Hap on this one, Mike. If everyone uses the same bead relationship, then the gun shoots the same for everyone, I think.

    But everyone's version of "same" can vary a lot. That's why Frank Little recommended sighting right down the rib when trying to convey a POI since everyone can agree on that.

    Neil
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Neil, I only pointed out why there could be differences with one gun shot by another shooter. Without changing the comb/rib to get that alignment.

    "If everyone uses the same bead relationship, then the gun shoots the same for everyone, I think."

    Sure, if the beads align the same for both, it shoots to the same place. Thats just not the fact in all circumstances however.

    Not everyone can align the beads on my gun as I do, the comb is way too high for them to do it. If I were to pick up your gun, more than likely, I'd be looking into the center portion of the break lever. Hap
     
  11. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    most guys think if your poi is 15 to 18 inches above your reference point at 32 yards you need to hold way under the target and that's with a figure 8 sight picture. that's not so. i just touch the target as it is rising and its dust. i believe that 15 to 18 inches is about 100 to 110% high. correct?
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Earl, 15 to 18 inches high is 15 to 18 inches high. There's no point in going any further.

    Neil
     
  13. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    thanks neil, good luck on your new position as president. you deserve it.
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Earl, and thanks for your donations to the Trapshooting Hall of Fame and everything.

    The reason you really don't want to convert your measurements into "percent high" estimates is that you will be talking to a lot of people who talk that way who have no idea where their guns shoot because they have never tested them. The people who have done it will understand what you are talking about because that's the way they think about it too. The rest will just confuse you with meaningless guesses and BS.

    Neil
     
  15. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Pat, Neil, Hap,

    Wow, you guys are way ahead of me. I guess I have yet to master where I mount the gun in a consistent manner, hence the use of the beads. My guess is Pat is consistent enough where he probably does not need the beads at all as the gun shoots where he is looking as it is mounted the same way every time. Pat, Hap and Neil, your gun fit must be excellent. I wish I knew someone around here that could help me with it.

    Right now, I can mount it too high or too low and I think I need to use the beads to tell me where it is - kind of like training wheels. Once the gun is in place, I forget the beads - look beyond the barrel at the trap house and call for the bird. I try hard to not move the gun until I see the clay rise from the house and swing the gun to meet it. Sounds great until I tried this with two eyes open but that is getting on to another thread. I also use the beads to tell me if I am canting the gun or not - another problem I have.

    I need to find an adjustable butt pad that will work with Browning's adjustable comb - the kind of comb where the adjustment screw is mounted through the butt pad. This would help with my canting problem. Any ideas of what might work?

    Neil, I ordered Frank Little's book earlier this week and hope it arrives soon. I like and really appreciate your thoughts about POI and short range testing, it is about the only way to precisely see the impact and actually be able to measure it. I picked up some new choke tubes from Briley and will be testing them before I use them at the range.

    Thank you all for taking the time to respond. I'm really green at this game
    and it helps to see what direction I need to go.

    Struggling for that first 25 straight,

    Mike
     
  16. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    smssnyder, if you gun is really seup to shoot that high, you must hold a high gun and make a minimal move to the target. My gun, up until very recently, was set to shoot 6.5" high at 13 yards. That's 16" high at 32 yards and 20" high at 40 yards. There is no instance where I can kiss the target, pull the trigger, and not have the shot go way over.

    When I'm seeing the birds well and shooting very quickly, it "appears" the bead kisses the bird when the gun fires. Actually, I pulled the trigger well before that and the speed of the swing moved the bead close in the interval between the time the command to fire was issued and the gun fired.

    If I am aiming, I absolutely must see appreciable daylight between the bead and bird to hit it.

    I recently lowered my unsingle POI to 4.5" high at 13 yards to match where my new O/U barrels shoot. That's 11" high at 32 yards. Now when I aim the bead must be a lot closer to the bird, but still under it. My automatic shooting has gone to pot. You wouldn't think that 5" difference in POI at 32 yards would make THAT much difference, but it surely does.

    If you are an aimer and you want to put the bead on the bird for 32 yard breaks, you need a true 70/30 shooting gun (6" high at 40 yards). That's around 5" high at 32 yards.
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Pat, I agree a shotgun has to shoot to a proper POI for each individual.

    "The comb and rib should be adjusted so the gun shoots where you look."

    We read this all the time and I feel it can be very confusing to many new shooters. Most reading that statement will go to a pattern board, place an ink spot on the paper for an aiming point and blast away. Is it shooting where I look if the pattern is half above and half below the ink spot? It may be for paper purposes but certainly not for shooting a quickly rising clay. Making your shotgun "shoot where you look" applies to a rising clay, not the pattern on paper. Experienced shooters know their best POI from experience on rising clays, new shooters may be very confused by "shooting where you look."

    Some shooters shoot the bird very quick with hardly no vertical gun movement at all. These are the high shooters Neil mentions. Most newer shooters and some experienced shooters take their shot farther out as the bird begins to level off, no high shooting pattern needed there.

    Setting up the proper POI for a beginner more than likely will change as he shoots more and shoots the clays quicker. My humble opinions. Hap
     
  18. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    zzt, i must allways hold lower to keep target allways above my barrel or i will shoot over target. yes, my guns shoot 15 to 18 inches above reference point. i am allways shooting at a rising target. if its windy and targets are going down i just hold lower. i have tried ever poi there is and my best scores are with a higher poi gun. handicap it helps more.
     
  19. Lkn4rocks

    Lkn4rocks TS Member

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    mercedesman1981 .... If you are really green at this game and are still struggling for that first 25 straight, here is something that will take some dedicated practice on your part but once perfected you will find that 25 straight is simple.

    Instead of "Once the gun is in place, I forget the beads - look beyond the barrel at the trap house and call for the bird. I try hard to not move the gun until I see the clay rise from the house and swing the gun to meet it."

    This is just a suggestion but please try this:

    If you are on a squad, disregard everyone else’s targets & concentrate only on yours. Once you have your gun ready for the next shot, with your primary vision, find a hold point some 5 - 10 yards beyond the front of the trap house. When it's your turn to shoot, mount your gun and in one fluid motion, bring the muzzle up until it's just below your hold point. (During this gun mounting process never look at the rib of you shotgun or the trap house with you primary vision, your secondary vision can see all this.) When the top edge of the trap house becomes distinct in you secondary vision, call for the target.

    With you primary vision focused beyond the trap house, when you call for the target, you will see a red streak as the clay leaves the house, as you chase the target to intercept and break it, your primary vision should be able to see the rings on the target. With dedicated practice, you will find that you can intercept the target and break it much closer to the trap house than ever before & with greater accuracy until you are consistently 25 straight.

    Thanks for your time & break ‘em all!
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Hap- The situation may only be related to me, but my gun always seems to shoot different on paper than it does on the line.

    Pat Ireland
     
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