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Mdl 12 versus 870 comparison...

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by bgf, Feb 6, 2012.

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  1. bgf

    bgf Active Member

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    I have been wondering about the comparison in POI and handleability between these two guns. Also, is the Mdl 12 worth another 50% above the Rem 870 going rate? What say you...
     
  2. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Let's assume that when you say "870" you're talking about the Wingmaster, TB or TC (i.e. not an "Express," which is a crime against humanity)....

    They both generally shoot flat.

    One is kinda ugly and the other is sleek and elegant.

    One is what you're supposed to like, and the other is what you really DO like.

    :O

    -Gary
     
  3. OLD ONE EYE

    OLD ONE EYE Well-Known Member

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    Just grew up with model 12 guns and they are great guns i prefer them for their quality of build. I have owned and shot lots of 870 trap guns and they are every bit as good as a Model 12 for this game. Either gun can win today old Rudy Etchen made me believe in the 870 they point and balance extremely well as does a model 12 both classic guns. Get one of each I did.
     
  4. ebsurveyor

    ebsurveyor Member

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    Just a general question. I have seen two cracked receivers on one of these models and none on the other. I have been around trap clubs for the past 50 plus years. Anyone else ever see a cracked receiver?
     
  5. Savage99Stan

    Savage99Stan Active Member

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    I have a cracked receiver on my TB....at around 400K rounds. I bought an old, unused Wingmaster of about the same era and grafted all my old parts on it. That was four years ago.
    I've had some M12s and loved them. My big problem was I'm not talented to keep them running. Probably weren't set up right to begin with. If there were new ones available at a fair price (around what a BT99 goes for) I'd buy another one.
    Til then I'll keep on shootin' and lovin' my 870 (platonically, that is)
     
  6. School Teacher

    School Teacher Well-Known Member

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    I have a 1950's era 870 TB with a cracked receiver. This 870 is third hand to me and has shot an ungodly number of targets. The crack is at the lower right hand corner of the ejection port. According to a Remington gunsmith at the Grand, it is safe to shoot as the 870 locks up in the barrel at the top of the receiver.

    I grew up shooting 870's and own several. I have also shot a couple of Model 12 trap grades but they do not feel the same in my hands as an 870.

    That said, the Model 12 is one of the best trap guns of all time. If I had started with a Model 12, I would be shooting one today.

    IMO, the Model 12 is the more beautiful of two shotguns but the 870 is easier to clean and service.

    The 870 express IMO is a lot of hunting gun for the money. Yes, it is butt ugly but it is light years ahead of other inexpensive pump guns and inexpensive over and under shot guns.

    The Remington 870 and 1100 shotguns and 700 high power rifle are examples of post WW II firearms designed to be rugged, accurate, efficient and cost effective to manufacture. There is no doubt that a Model 12 or a pre 1964 Winchester Model 70 are excellent designs but Winchester was not able to manufacture them to be cost competitive with their Remington counterparts.


    Ed Ward
     
  7. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    I've never shot a Model 12 so can't make that comparison, but I can tell you I loved shooting my 870, and, at least for me, I shot as well with that as if I had used any gun out there, regardless of cost. I have no doubt about that. It's 43 years old now, receiver never cracked but the bluing wore off, ejector spring disappeared decades ago, action bars broke couple times,...will always be my favorite gun. Hopefully my kid will take it over shortly, although I think he has more expensive tastes than I!
     
  8. Ross

    Ross Well-Known Member

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    Kind of an apples to oranges comparison, both good & will last a lifetime. I share Savage99Stans "talent" problem, owned 3 M12s when they were "the gun" (1960s) just weren't for "me" stayed with 870s until one day I got to shoot a Rem. M31, still shooting a 31TC but do have an 870 Comp. NIB for when that "day" comes along with a release to put in it. Pick the one that shoots where you are looking and feels right because you will probably never wear out either one. Then have FUN. Ross Puls

    PS Parts might be worth considering as M12 only built about 2 million and 870s are past 10 million and still in production, longest run production pump ever, if memory serves me correctly.
     
  9. Big Jack

    Big Jack Well-Known Member

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    You want smooth..start with a Rem 31 TC..Next, a Model 12, then an 870. Which ever you choose, you'll never wear it out. You might break a few parts over he years but everything made by man will break sooner or later. Just as long as it can be fixed!

    Big Jack

    PS If I could find a way to shoot My old Model 12 (Left Handed) with a release trigger, I'd go back to it in a heartbeat.
     
  10. Doug Brown

    Doug Brown Well-Known Member

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    Both point fine, the 870 has more recoil.
     
  11. Hill topper

    Hill topper Member

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    The model 12 is a gun from another era as is the Rem 31, both the finest examples of pumpgun development.

    The 870 is a worthly modern sucessor to the model 31.

    Winchester never has been able to match the 870 with its modern pumpguns.

    The model 1200 was an attempt but fell short.
    I enjoyed the 870TC which was my first real trapgun but moved on to the Model 12 as it was the trapgun of its day.

    my .03 cents

    ed.
     
  12. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    They are both great guns ... but when you close a Mod 12, it is like closing a bank vault ... 870 closes like a screen door.
     
  13. m12superx1

    m12superx1 Member

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    Love and own both guns.Cracked an 870 competition reciever when I was 16 at a game shoot.That was one of the best shooting guns I've ever shot.Remington sent us a brand new gun in 1985,which my Dad promptly sold and bought the model 12 I still shoot to this day.I have to admit, every time I see a competition for sale I think about it. You can't go wrong with either.
     
  14. Sky Buster

    Sky Buster Sky Buster TS Supporters

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    They'll both kick the snot out of you!
     
  15. m12superx1

    m12superx1 Member

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    Im used to that
     
  16. millerm12

    millerm12 Member

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    um i think you know the one im going to pick.just saying,
    both are great guns in there own right.
     
  17. Shipbuilder

    Shipbuilder TS Member

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    I have an 870 that I have had for 50 years.I wanted a model 12 when I bought it but they were $25 more.

    I still shoot ducks with the 870. When I started shooting trap 20 years ago I put a Timney trigger, monte Carlo stock and adjustable pad on it. Ran 25 at the Grand with it and then went on to Perrazis which I never shot as well.

    I have 3 Model 12s; Y Trap, Skeet ,3" Duck and a model 97 Riot. ( I can report 0 Riots locally since I have had the 97). The Y Trap is now my primary trap gun.

    I have been tempted by both Rem Model 31s and 870 Comps and certainly need a 97 Black Diamond Trap gun.If anyone has a copy of Trap and Field from about 15 years ago that talks about the squad of guys shooting Model 97s I would be interested in purchasing it.

    Needless to say I am goofy about pump guns; fortunately one can have a bunch of great pump guns for the cost of a good SBT gun.

    Jim
     
  18. FIB

    FIB Member

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    I once heard a gunsmith that I highly respect say this "The Model 12 and 31 were the best BUILT pumps guns. The 870 is the best ENGINEERED."
     
  19. Tom@eel

    Tom@eel Member

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    870's crack...M-12's don't, even after 90 years.
     
  20. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Well the 870 is what killed the M12 so by that measure, it must be the better gun. Who likes all that beautiful machine work anyway - it not like you can see it .....

    Kind of a sad story here really, when I look at my M12 I think of what it was that make our country so great back then - we really could build some nice stuff. Then consumerism and the sickening trend of having to cheapen everything up and go for volume over quality somehow redefined our nation.

    Even the 870 which use to be a pretty decent shotgun is a buch of poorly finished thrown together crap these days - and people think this is just dandy cause you can get one for a few hundred bucks less than it would cost for a properly finished one. Maybee they just don't know the difference.

    Now here is the really bizzare thing, you can buy vintage M12s for not much more than a new plastic fantastic hunk of junk from Walmart - man things are messed up.
     
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