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Mandatory shells not approved yet.

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by primed, Mar 7, 2010.

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  1. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Dr. Rively stated in a previous thread regarding the $100,000 shoot out "As a result the ATA will return to mandatory shell purchases at the Grand American through an ATA managed shell house."

    I have it on highly placed authority that the mandatory shell issue has not yet been aproved and will be presented to the delegates next week. If you feel strongly about this issue, please contact your delegate as soon as possible and let your feelings be known.

    Bob
     
  2. grunt

    grunt TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    TTT
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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  4. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Hi Neil

    I'll email the source document as soon as I find your email address.

    Thanks

    Bob
     
  5. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Neil - email sent.

    Missed Some - That's great. I think everybody should make their thoughts known, no matter what side of the issue you're on. You may notice I didn't solicit comments for any particular view. I only urged taking an active role if you feel strongly about the issue.

    Bob
     
  6. dr.beav

    dr.beav Member

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    Can anyone tell us where we find out out "Deligate's" email address?? the beav
     
  7. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Dr. Beav

    I got mine from our state web site. Also, in Trap and Field, Around the ATA, many delegates give their email at the end of their state report.

    Bob
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Finally! A question I can answer.

    1. Go to shootata.com

    2. On the mid-right is a map of the US and Canada; click on it.

    3. Then, from the larger map, click on your zone or pick one from the text list.

    4. Once you have that, click on your state or province and wait

    5. When you you've got your state or province, up at the right in orange, you will find your delegate and most have email; all have addresses and/or phones.

    Neil
     
  9. tuscarora 99

    tuscarora 99 TS Member

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    Is there any way you could send me the documents too primed? I would love to read them, so that i can better write my email to my delegate. Thank you.

    Sincerely, Osker Reynolds
     
  10. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    This is gonna be a hoot!

    The Zone V.P.'s should poll their respective Delegates (and Alt. Delegates) for input and a up or down vote. Then bring those results to the E.C. so a collective decision can be made.

    At this point I'm sure most Delegates don't have enough information to make a informed vote. If the E.C. stays true to form, the Delegates will be kept in the dark until the last minute so that they won't have the time to poll their state's shooters.

    Curt
     
  11. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I thought the Martins wanted new shells to be used, wasn't that was what posted on TS.COM by Frank Rively ..? If that is a fact and the Martins donated the $100,000 what would the EC or BOD have to do with it ..? Now, if in fact the Martins never said such a thing there is a problem in our midst that should be eliminated as in "Forced to Resign", and never to heard from again ... This can get interesting ...

    Has anyone actually heard Bill or LeAnn Martin say they wanted only new shells used for part of the Grand or all of it, if you have please let us know ... This does not take a long dragged out explaination, just a simple yes or no with a real name attached will do ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  12. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    WPT:

    Valid point, I'd be very disappointed if the new shell issue wasn't truly imposed by the donor. That said, I have no reason to believe it wasn't.

    Also, the ATA can still consider the restriction for at least two reasons: they could refuse the gift, or, donor-imposed restrictions can be changed by the donor.

    I have no doubt this could end up not being an issue.
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The Martins gave this gift to support the Grand. There was a bit of concern about cheating for such a large prize but I have doubt that they suggested requiring new shells be used.

    My personal opinion, not shared by many others (and probably not shared by my friend Neil), is that the mistake was allowing reloads to be used when we moved to Sparta. That simply lost too much revenue. I realize there were pricing problems with the shell companies when this decision was made.
    It would have been much simpler for the ATA to make up the lost revenue with an additional fee but I don't see the difference in raising fees or requiring new shells. The shooters end up paying the same amount.

    I also believe that the ATA made a tactical mistake by announcing the $100,000 gift and the new shells requirement at the same time.

    I have long been critical of the ATA for not operating as an efficient business that closely watches expenses. I contend that as a business, the ATA should make a reasonable profit from the Grand. It has not done this the last few years.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Pat Ireland,

    I totally agree with your contention that the ATA should make a reasonable profit off of the Grand ... The next question would probably be, what is considered to be reasonable and who decides that ..? The attendance at the Grand has been falling off since before the Grand moved to Sparta ... Do you or anyone for that matter feel that the donated prize of $100,000 will increase or decrease the attendance with stipulations attached to it that will cost the attendees quite a bit of additional money and in some cases actually make it cost prohibitive for some of those who have attended in the past to continue to attend ..?



    I am fortunate enough to be able to shoot new shells all of the time and on most occasions shoot the cheapies combined with the fact that I do not shoot near as much as I used to ... I do feel that in this case I don't think I would add any additional risk and eliminate Premium Handicap shells for a minimal cost differential even if the cheapies were available ...



    870,

    I, like you do not have any reason to believe new shells were not stipulated by Bill and LeAnn Martin either and do feel that if in fact it was their stipulation its mandatory that the request be honored or the donation be returned to said donor if it cannot be honored for whatever or any reason ... I agree with you that the donor could change that stipulation if they see fit but why would they if they made it in the first place ..? The $100,000 donation is very generous and they can make any stipulations they want because they made such a donation, so they should be allowed to make the rules to win it if the ATA can make those provisions and stay within the rules that already exist ... I have met and talked to both Bill and his wife many times in the past some years ago and would bet they had no intention of doing something or anything that would cause the amount of controversy this has, they are just not that kind of people ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  15. tanda1

    tanda1 Active Member

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    But Mr. Ireland, The ATA is not a business. Trying hard to think of an example of a business who's stockholders(members) are its sole customer base and nothing comes to mind.

    A business will make pricing decisions based on the maximizing profit. and/or sales volume. Higher prices may lose some sales but the the higher margin will offset those lost sales to provide a greater profit. Lower prices will lower margins but profits would be expected to rise w/ higher sales volume. In one case more people enjoy the benefits of the business's product. In the other, fewer do. An everyday business decisions.

    But....What about when the stockholders are also the only customers? In the case of the ATA, does the individual member get a greater return from an executive decision to maximize profits through higher prices? Nope, not directly. In fact, some will be excluded by pricing factors. Pull out the old supply-demand graphs from Economics 101. The same principles apply here.

    So does the ATA chose member benefit or profit? It is very difficult to serve two masters. Which one do you suggest?
     
  16. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Ireland

    I agree with most of what you said above. We disagree about the mandatory shell issue. I do agree there may be a need for additional revenue. In Vandalia, didn't we claim 100,000 spectators and charge $10.00 per day per carload. And we gave up all that revenue at the same time as the shell revenue. Maybe we should re-intitute and raise the spectator fees to $20.00 per each per day. If they can't afford to pay, they should go watch the Cardinal Classic!!!

    Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

    Bob
     
  17. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    WPT:

    I agree with you in your reply. I don't know the Martins, but hope that they realize we appreciate their act. There is no way they could have known such a firestorm would result. I just hope they can stay above this mess without getting frustrated, because I think it (the shell issue) will work out in the end.
     
  18. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    One of the major problems with the ATA is the members (we are the ATA) don't feel like they are truly a part of the decision making process. Sure we elect our delegate but he/she may or may not vote what we, the ATA, want. In fact the move to Sparta was rejected by the membership in a survey mailing and our delegates still voted for it. If the members felt they would benefit from making more profit all of this squabbling about the new shell requirement would not exist. The Martins have done a great thing to try to boost the attendance at the Grand and they deserve the members gratitude. I hope they don't read these threads. JRM
     
  19. Mr.M

    Mr.M Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    Have to be a little precise here in our definitions. We are dues paying members of this Association only. None of us has been a stockholder (equitable owner) since the By-Laws were changed removing the equitable ownership rights of Life Members. That said, I can think of some organizations where the members are the only customers.

    None of this discussion or any other discussions relieves the "management" of our Association from the responsibility of running the organization in a business-like manner.

    Mike Mann 1978 ATA Life Member 07-34685
     
  20. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    tanda1,

    Any organization that is not run like a business will eventually fail.

    You DO NOT own stock in the ATA. Your princely $20 annual fee gives you membership. You are a stake holder like the rest of us.

    Don Verna
     
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