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Mailing firearms by US mail without declaring

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by g7777777, Aug 19, 2007.

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  1. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    There are two threads where I have commented on this

    Everyone has to declare a firearm is being shipped in the US mail-- and there are probably several reasons for that- but a shotgun is defined as a firearm

    The postal authority then has the option of having the package opened or trusting the form that the person fills out-- part of that was probably intended for safety and part to insure that the firearm didnt fall into one of the more restrictive or prohibited categories

    Some firearms- those that can be concealed have even more restrictions

    Below is a recent case of a guy that had a bad day

    MAN WHO PUT FIREARM IN MAIL SENTENCED TO PROBATION

    United States Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan announced today, December 8, 2006, that Andrew W. McNelis, III, a resident of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, has been sentenced in federal court in Pittsburgh to one year probation with 60 hours of community service on his conviction of violating federal laws relating to the mailing of firearms.

    "United States District Judge Gary Lancaster imposed the sentence on McNelis, age 32, of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

    According to information presented to the court by Assistant United States Attorney Constance M. Bowden, on March 20, 2002, McNelis deposited a firearm in a United States mail facility. Under federal law, firearms constitute non-mailable matter.

    Ms. Buchanan commended the United States Postal Inspection Service and Pennsylvania State Police for the investigation leading to the successful prosecution of Andrew W. McNelis, III."

    Now what isnt stated is that if this had been going on for a year- the private attorney fees could easily have totaled 25 thousand to 50 thousand dollars depending on a lot of factors-- maybe this guy had no money and got a public defender but those reading this would not get a public defender because you have assets


    If you want to have a very bad day possible- go ahead and mail all the firearms you want undeclared

    I would say only a fool would do that-- a very very dumb fool who bettr have lots of money- not mind losing his job and his or her family and not mind on being prevented from life from possessing firearms

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  2. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    McNelis deposited a firearm in a United States mail facility. Under federal law, firearms constitute non-mailable matter?????????????????????????

    HUH????? I guess that a bunch of people belong in jail. Since it is totally legal to mail a gun through he mail what is theis case all about? Jeff
     
  3. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Gene,

    It was a handgun. That does not count in our discussion. Keep the discussion in one thread.

    Danny
     
  4. esoxhunter

    esoxhunter Well-Known Member

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    Gene: Here is a copy from the USPS Domestic Mail Manual, (DMM). It deals with the shipping of shotguns and rifles.

    11.3 Rifles and Shotguns
    Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e

    To alleviate confusion, 11.1.1e deals with short barrel shotguns, (Less than 18") and short barrel rifles. (Less than 16") 11.1.2 addresses handguns. The only paperwork that MAY be required is having the RECEIVING FFL send their FFL permit, if you were to be selling the gun to someone instead of say shipping it to a gunsmith for repair. Also, the address cannot contain information that can be associated with guns, i.e., instead of addressing the package to Joe's Gun Shop; you would address it to Joe's Sport Shop or Joe's Shop, etc. Nowhere can you show me in the DMM manual regarding firearms, that I must supply a completed form, unless of course it is a copy of the aforementioned FFL. (Unless of course you refuse to open the package for inspection, if asked, then as is stated in the policy above you might need to supply "written confirmation"). I have been through this several times and talked to numerous USPS personnel. If they check the DMM manual addressing the shipping of firearms; it is all spelled out. Ed
     
  5. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    To all except Gene

    Below are pertinent references for shipping a firearm via the mail. I am unable to find any requirement to declare a firearm when shipping via USPS. And despite the report Gene cites saying “Under federal law, firearms constitute non-mailable matter”, most rifles and shotguns are mailable.

    The references can be verified online or at your local library and post office.

    From the Code of Federal Regulations

    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 83 > § 1715
    Prev | Next
    § 1715. Firearms as nonmailable; regulations
    Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe.
    Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.



    From the Domestic Mail Manual


    11.0 Other Restricted and Nonmailable Matter
    11.1 Pistols, Revolvers, and Other Concealable Firearms
    11.1.1 Definitions
    The terms used in this standard are defined as follows:
    a. Handgun means any pistol, revolver, or other firearm or device the mailing of which is regulated by this standard.
    b. Pistol or revolver means a handgun styled to be fired by the use of a single hand and to fire or otherwise expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.
    c. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, designed to, or that may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.
    d. Other firearms capable of being concealed on the person include, but are not limited to, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles.
    e. Short-barreled shotgun means a shotgun that has one or more barrels less than 18 inches long. The term short-barreled rifle means a rifle that has one or more barrels less than 16 inches long. These definitions include any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled shotgun or rifle of greater dimension may be regarded as nonmailable when it has characteristics to allow concealment on the person.
    f. Licensed manufacturer and licensed dealer mean, respectively, a manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer of firearms, duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), 18 USC 921, et seq.
    g. Antique firearm means any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:
    1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
    2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
    11.1.2 Handguns
    Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 11.1.3 and 11.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 11.1.4 and 11.1.6.
    11.1.3 Authorized Persons
    Subject to 11.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person's official duties:
    a. Officers of the Army, Coast Guard, Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps.
    b. Officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, or district.
    c. Officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district, whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
    d. USPS employees authorized by the Chief Postal Inspector.
    e. Officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States.
    f. Watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, or district.
    g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of agencies employing officers and employees included in 11.1.3c. through 11.1.3e.
    11.1.4 Affidavit of Addressee
    Any person proposing to mail a handgun under 11.1.3 must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee setting forth that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm under a particular category of 11.1.3a. through 11.1.3g, and that the firearm is intended for the addressee's official use. The affidavit must also bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official duty use of the addressee, signed by one of the following, as appropriate:
    a. For officers of Armed Forces, by the commanding officer.
    b. For officers and employees of enforcement agencies, by the head of the agency employing the addressee to perform the official duty with which the firearm is to be used.
    c. For watchmen, by the chief clerk of the department, bureau, or independent branch of the government of the United States, the state, the territory, or the district by which the watchman is employed.
    d. For the purchasing agent or other designated member of enforcement agencies, by the head of such agency, that the firearm is to be used by an officer or employee included in 11.1.3c. through 11.1.3e, Authorized Persons.
    11.1.5 Manufacturers and Dealers
    Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.
    11.1.6 Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers
    A licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 11.1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms, that the parcels containing handguns (or major component parts thereof) are customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms.
    11.1.7 FBI Crime Detection Bureaus
    Handguns may be mailed without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6 if:
    a. Addressed to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), or its director, or to the scientific laboratory or crime detection bureau of any agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers or officers of a state, territory, or district authorized to serve warrants of arrest or commitment; or
    b. Offered by an authorized agent of the federal government as an official shipment to any qualified addressee in categories 11.1.3a. through 11.1.3g, or to a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms or to a federal agency.
    11.2 Antique Firearms
    Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6.
    11.3 Rifles and Shotguns
    Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e.
     
  6. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    You have to declare it - do what you want but you are circumventing the law

    Why do it? If you want to lose everything you have to "prove" you are right- try to interpret this any way you want

    risk v. reward

    seems pretty stupid doesnt it?

    regards from Iowa

    Gene

    ps -- I have received emails from people on the ts.com to include law enforcement -- and they say right on= you cant fix stupid
     
  7. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Can you give me a verifiable reference Gene? That all I ask. Or do I just go into the post office and say Gene said to tell you there is a firearm in this package?

    A reference. Surely you must have one. Why not share it?

    Bob
     
  8. SShooterZ

    SShooterZ Member

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    A handgun, shipped via USPS, has to be shipped via an FFL who has filled out the proper paperwork with the P.O. Had this guy shipped a handgun by himself, not being an FFL, he would have broken the law.

    Shipping a long gun without using an FFL to ship is perfectly legal as long as you are shipping to an FFL, gunsmith or yourself.

    I think you're skewing the wording a bit Gene to strengthen your argument but I'm not sure it is law.
     
  9. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    no you can ship it yourself to an FFL- you just have to declare to the post office that you are shipping a firearm-

    They have the right to inspect any firearm and require a firearms declaration form

    A dealer or manufactuer has to make that same type of declaration

    I am not skewing anything

    Why would you not want to do this?

    Gene
     
  10. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    How about those references? Somebody might think you're making this up if you don't provide references. Why would you risk that Gene?

    Bob
     
  11. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Bob- you have all the references you are going to get

    If you want to not declare a firearm-- you are breaking the law- I would tell you to not advise others to do the same

    Thats all I have to say on this issue

    thanks

    Gene
     
  12. SShooterZ

    SShooterZ Member

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    Gene - What if you use UPS or FedEx? Since those are not government agencies, if you did not declare, do you feel it would still be a legal violation?

    Does anyone know an ATF agent we could contact to confirm?
     
  13. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    B7 and B8 from the FAQs on the ATF web site. USPS is not a common carrier. The requirement for notifying common and contract carriers that a package contains an unloaded shotgun does not SEEM to apply to USPS mailings.

    Danny
     
  14. SShooterZ

    SShooterZ Member

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    That was always my understanding too Danny...

    If you "shipping" by train, bus, plane, etc where there are passengers involved, than yes, I believe you need to declare. But using UPS, FedEx and USPS I don't believe qualify as "common carriers".
     
  15. glenn mcleod

    glenn mcleod Member

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    Also, handguns and long guns have different rules for shipping. Glenn
     
  16. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    When mailing a handgun from FFL to FFL (only) a form 1508 MUST be used. This declares where the package is mailed from and where it is mailed to. A long gun may be shipped as a "firearm for repair" or a "customary trade shipment".

    My Post Office at 37210 will NOT ship a firearm. When asked to look up shipping regs in their manual, they "cannot find it". When asked to see the Postmaster, "he is not available today". When asked for the aforementioned form 1508, they "are out of them, but have some on order".

    Instead of losing my patience with these simpletons, I go to Fed Ex, where I have a commercial account. If you deal with Fed Ex, get the FREE commercial account.
     
  17. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Shooting coach, you can get links to both ATF and USPS form Joe Potosky's website, Link above.

    I print out the postal and ATF sections that apply and bring them.

    USPS is still the best shipper for long guns, UPS stinks. Fedex is ok, but they are far away for me.

    Just sent one to VA from WI, 1500 insured, cost was 39.00.

    I had one postal employee tell me they couldn't, and had to set him straight. That was in Phoenix. I had shipped my guns to myself for a tournament and got grief when I went to ship them back.

    He had to get his supervisor and dig out the rule book.

    So have a printout with you and save time. You will be doing the postal employee a favor.

    HM
     
  18. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Subject: best way to ship high end gun needed
    From: GN7777777
    Email:
    Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2007 - 07:35 AM CT
    Website Address: http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_003.html#Kji8413ccedwa

    Bob(primed for what?) claims he is/was a firearms dealer--

    Bob admits on an internet web page to not declaring a firearm it appears when he shipped them multiple times- denying the post office control, safety and positive ID of himself and the firearm

    The law appears to cleary require the above

    It would appear that Bob is not stupid but rather that he is a blooming idiot for his admissions

    but who knows for sure

    I shouldnt do this because all the people that are shipping firearms illegally now will say this is wrong

    http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_003.html#Kji8413ccedwa

    that link is a reg-- it groups several federal statute requirements together

    note the definition of firearm -- you can then go to your search feature- type in firearm

    everytime the word firearm is used- you must comply

    Bob doesnt know what he is talking about

    but if you want to trust Bob- feel free to call him from Jail- he might help you with your legal fees

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  19. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Gene

    You certainly have quite a bit to say after you have nothing more to say on the issue. Original question was "what is the best way to ship a high end gun to an FFL?" Says nothing about shipping from an FFL but TO and FFL. Your reference states "PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing"

    I understend that some people have problems with reading comprehension and if you would have just told me of your disability, I would not have pursued trying to reason with you.

    Good luck in your life in your little world.

    Bob
     
  20. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    firearms declaration form?? I have shipped plenty of guns viau USPS and I was told by my Post office that all I needed was to be able to prove that I was sending it to an FFL. They ask that I do that by bringing in the FFL copy and show them that the premises address is the address that the package is being mailed too. This is only shotguns as that is all I have ever shipped. It helps to have a Post office that has it's employees up to speed.Firearms declaration form????????/ Never been asked to fill one out. EVER..... Jeff
     
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