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Longer lead for rights than lefts - myth or fact?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Old Cowboy, May 19, 2009.

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  1. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    it's BS
     
  2. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    True.Right hand shooters move more smoothly to a target to the right than the left. I think it is because you see the target clearer on the right?

    Take you best shots. It's a good question?
     
  3. kiwiG

    kiwiG Member

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    I can't remember where I saw it, and I certainly didn't understand the logic as physics isn't my thing, but my understanding is that in doubles thrown off a single arm the target that comes off the arm second flies faster and further but in singles, where all targets come off the same place on the arm there would be no difference. Regards-Graham.
     
  4. Damifino

    Damifino Member

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    Here is something interesting I found with my kid's shooting with respect to this. He had a tendancy to mount his gun with a slight left (counter clockwise) rotation. It looked to him that it was straight.

    Because most target guns shoot some percentage high it more or less added an artificial lead to shots swinging toward the rotation. Similarly it inserted a lag in the other direction.

    We ended up addressing the problem with a stock adjustment. It takes some effort as well because the way the stock form rests in his hands still feels "wrong" when the gun is straight. In time I'm sure he'll get it grooved in.

    I have also wondered if some people roll the gun toward the target inadvertantly on hard lefts (for a right handed shooter). That would also have the same effect but be much harder to detect that it's happening.

    I've actually thought about designing a very small magnetic level to place on the bridge. You can see if your mount is level and practice it properly. Have it made in Taiwan, probably wouldn't sell for more than $10-$15. Think there's a market?
     
  5. Mismost

    Mismost TS Member

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    I "see" the exact opposite. I see shorter leads on hard right handed targets. I see more lead on left to right targets. It is even more apparent on the skeet fields. I caulk it up to the barrel being more in the way on a right to left shot.

    Frankly, anytime I know exactly where the barrel is...it means I was not focused on the target hard enough.

    Also think that while we may all be looking at the same the thing, we all see it differently. If I am seeing the target good and putting a hard focus on it, my brain will sort out all the other minor details...like lead!
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I see no leads when I am shooting. I look at the target and the gun just goes to the right place.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    The actual lead is the same. The perceived lead for me is greater for hard rights than hard lefts.

    I got all messed up at one time playing a computer trap game a lot, the leads for left and right were the same on the computer. I had to get help to find out that I was shooting behind the hard rights in the real world. Actually got my first 100 straight there. :) Had to stop playing computer trap game. :(

    Jason
     
  8. hoggy

    hoggy TS Member

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    Its true most of the time because the trap throws birds that have a slight slice to them. Spin off the throwing arm. Watch closely sometime when you are not shooting.
     
  9. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    I've been shown by two teachers (as a right-hander) that it depends on how perfectly the shooter maintains their eye/gun alignment when swinging to hard angles.

    Most right-handed shooters tend to shoot low and to the left of targets as they swing because the end of the barrel does not stay in perfect alignment with their eye. They pull the gun toward their face as they swing left (moving the POA to the left) and push the gun away from their face on rights (moving the POA to the right) On left angles they swing a bit ahead of the target so can apparently shoot right at it(or even a little behind) and still hit it. On right angles they must increase their apparent lead on the target because they are actually pointing a bit behind the target and have to compensate further to the right to hit it.

    Carol Lister
     
  10. BMC

    BMC Member

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    I experience what EE is describing. I have no idea why but once I settled into that is the way it is, it hasn't affected my scores. From #5 I have to have clear daylight in front of the hard right, what looks like a foot or two of lead. On the lefts from one, if I pull the trigger with the barrel in front and daylight between, its a loss. Its more apparent for me in doubles. In fact in doubles, particularly from #2 and #3 I pull the trigger right when the barrel comes to the back end of the second (angle) target. From #4 and #5, the right (second target) I better have my barrel in front and plenty of daylight, otherwise its a lost target. It used to bother me but rather than fret over something I couldn't seem to figure out why, I just painted my sight picture to reflect where I needed to be get into that target right.
     
  11. Wayne of PA

    Wayne of PA Member

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    I’m with Pat on this one. I see no leads.

    Dale
     
  12. Ed Y

    Ed Y TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Many right handed shooters, who's gun does not properly fit with respect to cast or off set, will move their head slightly away from the stock when they start the move to the target. When doing so, the gun shoots slightly to the left, thus they appear to need more lead on right hand targets than lefts. The opposite is true if you're left handed.

    ALIMO

    Ed Yanchok
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Well, EE, there are two ways to think about your question. Is the lead we are talking about the "apparent" one of the actual one?

    Of the two, the actual one is easier to get a real answer to. To refine our thinking, we won't shoot a shotgun, but rather a .22 and the target is not a clay one, it's a nickel (which flies like a clay target, for the purposes here.)

    So the question is how far must the .22 be pointed ahead of the flying nickel to hit it? And behind that are two determiners, the lead needed because of the delay of the bullet in getting to the target and the horizontal speed of the muzzle when the bullet exits.

    The speed of the bullet is 1000 feet per second and it takes 1/7 second to get to the target. The horizontal component of the nickel's speed is (let's say) the sine of 28 degrees times the speed of the target that is a little less than half of 44 ft/sec , call it 21 ft/sec. 1/7 of that is three feet, the calculated lead due to the interaction of target speed and time of flight of the bullet.

    But the muzzle is moving too, and that speed has been estimated here in ranges from very little to 18 ft/sec, though I thought the latter was a least five times too high. Let's say 3 ft/sec and that takes 3/7 feet off that first required lead so it's now two and a half feet.

    Now these are fixed numbers and not influenced by the direction, right or left, of the angle of the target, except gun speed might be a little different but we've shown that it's a minor effect, accounting in this case for no more than 1/5 of the total lead. So if swing speed to the right is as much as 50% slower to the right as to the left, we are still talking about no more than 3 inches and I don't think people who hold this theory are talking about three inches.

    So in the case of actual lead, I think the answer is "myth" for most of us who don't aim to within three inches.

    Perceived lead is quite another thing and has little to do with the math we've just done. That's mostly illusion since the command "fire" has to have been sent well before the sight-picture looked right, assuming we are "swinging through the bird from behind" as most of us are. I hold little hope of ever figuring it out to any degree of accuracy and if people tell be they see it differently, I take their word for it, keeping in mind, however, that there's "really" no required difference.

    Neil
     
  14. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Doubles is good exmple of what you are talking about. I shoot the left from post 1 with a slight lead and I shoot the right from post 5 with 3 times the lead. Real or not I don't know but it is what I see and they way I have to shoot them.

    If I would have known of this subject I would have asked a certain ex-Pres. this question as we were shooting doubles yesterday but I would have probably been thinking about 22's and nickles instead of orange disks.

    Don
     
  15. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Carol and Ed have it right about the stock being pulled away from your face.

    To many right handed shooters have their foot and body positions on post 5 facing the trap house, which means you have to turn your body/gun a lot on a hard right. The longer it takes to catch up to the target, the longer lead you will need.

    Right handed shooters need to position their feet on a parallel line with an extreme left angle from post 5. If your positioned correctly, a hard left from post 5 will be a straight away, and cutting your swing in half on a hard right. Wayne
     
  16. ou.3200

    ou.3200 Well-Known Member

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    I think it an optical illusion for a right handed shooter due to a faster swing to the left and perhaps the left eye is taking over a bit on hard lefts. Any one eye shooters out there experiencing the same phenomenon?
     
  17. LV Trapshooting Park

    LV Trapshooting Park TS Member

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    This post got my attention, as I am quite familiar with this situation. My observation of 100s of shooters has shown me that right hand shooters that use both eyes tend to shoot behind rights, in front of lefts, and under all of them. This is true in singles, hdcp and doubles. I also observed this same situation with shooters in New Zealand while conducting clincs there several years ago. This condition is so prevelant, we referred to it as the 8 o'clock syndrome, as thats where the shot usually was in relationship to the target. I definitely believe binocular vision plays a roll in this, regardless of dominant eye. I'm sure some shooters also just move one way better than the other as well.

    Steve C
    LV Gun Club
     
  18. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    That's interesting Steve,

    Perhaps this observation implies that many two eyed shooters might not be as "two-eyed" (right eye dominant) as they think they are?

    John C. Saubak
     
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