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Longer forcing cones; good idea?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by C H S, Jul 23, 2007.

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  1. C H S

    C H S TS Member

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    I was talking to a couple of guys this weekend who seemed to know more about guns than me and one of the things they said they had done to their guns was to have the forcing cones lengthened. I gave a pretty good idea about what a forcing cone is and where it is but I have little idea about why you would want to make it longer.

    I can have it done at the Westy in PA for $80 a barrel but would like to know more about it. If you have had this done to your gun, does it make a difference or should I say is it an improvement? If it makes guns better why doesn't the factory do it? Is it something my 3 year old Browning XT could benefit from?

    Andy
     
  2. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Your gun MIGHT pattern slightly better with a longer forcing cone, but you will kill any warranty on your gun.

    OTOH, if you shoot promo factory ammo or light reloads, you might have performance problems in cold weather.

    If it were mine, I would leave it alone and enjoy.
     
  3. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    NO recoil difference that is noticeable, but patterns are better.

    Less deformation of shot means fewer fliers.

    HM
     
  4. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    CHS,

    On factory overbored barrels (INV+'s are), the felt recoil difference is probably of little to no value. On the other hand, patterns are generally better with fewer fliers as Halfmile stated. The reason for this is that the transfer from the chamber to the barrel is more gradule instead of abrupt. I am basically just stating the same thing that Halfmile said.

    I have noticed greater gains on non-overbored barrels. I have never regreted having this done to any of my guns.

    I do feel fortunate though, my gunsmith only charges me $40.00 a hole.

    ec90t
     
  5. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    If your Browning is only 3 years old, it already has slightly reduced forceing cones from the factory. Most of the invector plus gun barrels do have them. Yes you could have a gunsmith make them longer. As said above it will cancel your warranty. I would leave it alone, I did on mine. Spend the money on shells or targets. It helps older guns with the hard ridge at the end of the chamber. Even then it only reduces recoil by about 7 percent. Not really enough to feel. But as said above it will reduce the amount of BB's in the front of the wad column from deforming (denting), this will make them fly out of your shotgun pattern before your shot stream can reach the target. Hope this helps you out. Break-em all. Jeff
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    If lengthening the cone works as everyone is told, recoil must be more. There's no way around it.

    The two guns I tested showed no change in pattern. I have one still to do and this one was done right. Pre-test, cone, post test. It's an 870 with an unfashionably short cone. Any bets?

    Neil
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Neil, the effect would probably be greater with chilled shot. I never thought about that till now.


    Some good data would be nice, I still believe in 1&1/2 degree cones.

    HM
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    When a forcing cone is lengthened, it is lengthened less than 0.1 inch and the bevel of the cone is changed less than 2 degrees.

    In theory, removing the very small amount of metal from the barrel would increase recoil. This change in recoil would be much less than adding one additional shot pellet to the shot charge. Not every charge of shot we drop has the exact same number of pellets.

    Patterns tend to be very variable. Ten patterns shot from the same gun using the same ammunition will vary among themselves more than 10 patterns shot from the same gun before and after forcing cone lengthening.

    I did have the forcing cones lengthened in my barrels. I have done many things in my life that I do not understand why I did them. If I buy another gun I would probably just send it to Tom W. and ask him to do whatever he thinks should be done to the barrels. I would also ask him not to tell me what he did to them. This might not give me improved pattern performance but would give me some mental confidence.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. C H S

    C H S TS Member

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    Thanks for the replies. I'll have to think about now whether I want to do this or not.

    Shooting Coach,

    Browning doesn't have a warranty on any of their guns. They told me more than once that they deal with material and workmanship problems on a case by case basis and they reserve the right to decide if they are responsible for what breaks or not. So I dont have to worry about something I dont have.

    Wireguy,

    The chambers in my Browning are chromed but the barrels are simply gun steel so messing with the cones should leave the chrome alone.

    Andy
     
  10. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    CHS, Browning does have a warranty. When you purchased a Browning Belgian made O/U shotgun you had a lifetime warranty to the original buyer. Remove the forcing cones and try to get them to fix it. They don't mind ported barrels, but will not touch weakened barrels where all the pressure is. Thats what your doing when you remove metal.

    George
     
  11. C H S

    C H S TS Member

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    George,

    I can't argue that the buyers of Belgian Brownings were given a lifetime warranty; I don't know, But I do know that the buyers of Japanese Brownings like mine are at the mercy of the company now.

    Andy
     
  12. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    The actual recoil will be the same....the "felt" recoil may be reduced depending on how much you spend. Just keep repeating over and over..."That $200 forcing cone job really worked..." Best Regards, Ed
     
  13. jnoemanh

    jnoemanh TS Member

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    Forcing cones need to be lengthened? Huh? Can it really be true that gunmakers like Remington, Perazzi, krieghoff, Purdey, etc, etc. don't know the best shape for chambers, forcing cones and barrels, but some small shop does?
     
  14. X Trap 2

    X Trap 2 TS Member

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    Now you are getting it.......Ray
     
  15. berettaman7

    berettaman7 TS Member

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    You should not polish the forcing cones to a point which makes them dangerous, I have heard many stories about burst barrels for polishing the cones to 3" and longer.

    Berettaman7
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I, in contrast, wireguy, equally admire how so many here tell us that patterns are improved without, as far as I can tell, zilch for evidence. All I want is one example, done with the care any of us should require if we were thinking about spending $40 on something which can't be undone.

    Neil
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    flincher100- Neil just told us that he has seen no test results that support any pattern change due to altering the forcing cones.

    Patterns are quite variable and a reasonable analysis of many patterns are required to test the affect of minor changes in barrels. When an author states, as you quoted above, the pattern improved "very slightly" the reader should become very suspicious. When the author was Don Zuts, the suspicion should be much greater. He had a habit of stating as a tested fact things that just happen to pop into his head.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    I have owned three guns that have had lengthened forcing cones. A previous owner of my Superposed had the chambers lengthened to 3". I had the forcing cones lengthened to reduce perceived recoil. I also expected (because lots of people said so) an improvement in the already outstanding patterns. I got a little recoil reduction, but no pattern tightening. Having shot many, many pattern series before and after, I can say with authority that there were no improvements in those barrels. If you want to shade that a little, the averages of all the after patterns showed an opening of less than 1/2%, too small a difference to mean anything.

    My second-hand MX-15 had the barrel and tubes worked on by Tom Wilkinson. It shot soft and patterned great. However, since he worked on all interior surfaces, you can't draw any conclusions about forcing cones alone.

    My current barrel has 3" chambers and threw very tight, but anomalous patterns when it was new. For various reasons I began to suspect the forcing cone. I sent it out last June to have it lengthened figuring that if nothing else I'd get a little recoil reduction. It came back with the cone a little rougher than I'd expected, but the anomaly was mostly gone. I got zero recoil reduction. The cone has been becoming smoother from cleaning and shooting, and the patterns have been opening slightly. Since the cones were lengthened, are becoming more polished and the temperatures have been rising since April when I started shooting seriously again, you would expect tightening patterns based on all the hoopla. That's opposite what I am getting.

    So based on my two experiences were only the forcing cone was changed, the only thing I can say is felt recoil was reduced in the .722" barrels, but not in the .734" barrel, and patterns were not tightened.
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    zzt- How could lengthening the forcing cones effect perceived recoil?

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Pat you won't buy the purported explanation because you don't believe humans can detect differences in force caused by small increments of time changes.

    I think parameters other than forcing cone length influence reported results. What I essentially said above is that you can't prove it by me. Recoil was reduced in the Superposed barrels by enough to allow me to continue shooting a gun that otherwise beat the snot out of me. In my Perazzi barrel- no effect on recoil. No pattern tightening in any barrels.

    A theory that does not correctly predict results all, or at least most, of the time is not a theory. It is an observation. If I were to theorize on the recoil portion of the claim based on my three examples, I'd have to say bore diameter is the real determiner of recoil reduction vis a vis forcing cone lengthening. The larger the bore, the more non-existent the forcing cone. So lengthening the almost-not-there-cone in a big bore has to have less of an effect than lengthening a short, steep cone in a tight bore. I'd also theorize the force/time curve is not directly experienced. Its effect on the rebounding shock wave generated in the propellant gases when the ejecta hits the cone is what the shooter feels.

    I also think the notion of ordering a factory gun with a 3" chamber to pseudo-lengthen a factory cones is ass backwards thinking. It sure seems to ADD felt recoil to me. Letting the ejecta expand a little and get up a good head of steam before hitting the forcing cone does not strike me as a sensible way to reduce recoil, free or felt.
     
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