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Lock Time

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Anthony12ga, May 3, 2008.

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  1. Anthony12ga

    Anthony12ga Member

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    Someone made the comment about a certain shotgun having a very slow lock time. Is there any information listed anywhere that lists lock times for different shotguns?
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Remington 1100 slow, Remington 3200 very fast. HMB
     
  3. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Hey, the guy asked for a chart of lock times and all he gets is slow and fast? No, there is no chart because on the line it doesn't make a rat's ass bit of difference.
     
  4. Anthony12ga

    Anthony12ga Member

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    I've shot Beretta 680s and 390s but can't say that I've noticed a big difference, but I really wasn't looking for it.

    So semi-autos generally have a slower lock time I take it.

    What about 1100s?
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You can estimate your own, Tony, if you have a couple of (contrasting) triggers handy.

    Lock time is determined by:

    1. The strength of the hammer-driving spring (stronger leads to shorter locktimes.)

    2. The mass of the hammer or striker (lighter leads to shorter locktimes.)

    3. Distance of hammer fall/striker travel (less distance leads to shorter locktimes.)

    And that's all. So pull the hammer back on an 100, feel the spring resistance, see how far it travels. Borrow a Perazzi (for example) trigger at a shoot and do the same. You now have the first two entries in your chart.

    This is all there is to it.

    Neil ©2008
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    DA, I agree.

    Neil
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Lock time is very important if you trap the first bird in doubles. HMB
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Let's check that one, hmb.

    Call the horizontal speed of that first doubles target 60 ft/sec and the angle it is thrown at 23 degrees. The vertical speed of the target is given by the tangent of 23 degrees times the horizontal speed or 0.43 x 60 or about 25 ft/sec.

    So in a thousandth of a second the bird rises 0.025 feet.

    If you shoot a Perazzi, estimated lock time 0.003 seconds, the bird rises 0.075 feet in the "lock time interval."

    If you shoot an 1100, estimated lock time 0.010 seconds, the bird rises 0.25 feet in the "lock time interval."

    The difference is 0.25 minus 0.075 or 0.18 feet. That's two inches.

    My conclusion is that "Lock time is (_not_) very important if you trap the first bird in doubles."

    And since, of course, the first bird in doubles is the most extreme case, that is the angle is highest and bird-speed the greatest (and so the vertical rise of the bird is the fastest) I will go on to say

    "Lock time is not very important."

    Neil ©2008
     
  9. coldtrail

    coldtrail Member

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    Neil if you read this send me your email.
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Done, ct.

    Neil
     
  11. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    Anthony12ga,

    Lock-up time on a trigger is a preceptive thing much like felt recoil. Some people are more sensative to it than others.

    I can't deal with the trigger on a Beretta semi-auto and have tried since I've owned three different ones. I had a MoneyMaker trigger in one, I had Dennis Devault do another, and the third one was stock. While Dennis's trigger was the best, I still couldn't deal with it. I always felt like I was shooting my flintlock rifle.

    My brain can differinciate very well between slow and fast for some reason. I'm also very sesative to shell speed for some reason as well.

    ec90t
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- Your calculations of target travel and lock time are accurate but they leave out the important dimension of gun/body movement. Your calculations assume the gun is static and only the bird is moving. I have no idea how far my gun barrel will move during a lock time difference of 0.01 seconds, but the small amount of movement at 30 inches will be amplified at 35 yards and is probably more important than the distance the target travels during that time.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Like Pat says above, lock time on a moving target becomes more important depending on how the shooter moves his gun. Some release the sears while the barrel is moving, some hit the trigger and stop the barrel movement. You can see these two different approaches to breaking clays by watching barrel movements on the line. Watch a guy shooting a Win. mod. 12 successfully, watch the end of his barrel. Compare that to one shooting a Seitz or a MachOne with quick lock times. The better of the mod. 12 shooter's barrel will be moving when the gun fires in a more pronounced way. Watch Ken Darroch of Penn. shoot his model 12 sometime. His barrel is flying when the gun fires off.

    Shoot a few rounds of singles with a flint lock shotgun if you get a chance. Gives new meaning to keeping a barrel moving and a true appreciation of a faster lock time. Hap
     
  14. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Just before you call for the target, you should always think, "How is my lock time going to affect this shot?" Also, safety tip: don't play the money.
     
  15. chatbrat

    chatbrat TS Member

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    Dennis told me the lock time on his new Infinity is.0005/sec-he said it is 3 times than a Seitz wich is .0015/sec---Phil ( dosn't man a thing if the gun doesn't fit), A Krieghoff is .0025-.003/sec
     
  16. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    The only time lock time matters is when it changes.


    Shoot a model 12 for years then purchase another gun with an identical fit and a faster lock time then its going to matter.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  17. fearlessfain

    fearlessfain TS Member

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    when i started shooting in 1965 nobody spoke of back boring,forcing cones,barrelsmiths,etc, it was all about lock time as if that would make any difference.shooters have always a theory to discuss around the club house.
     
  18. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    rmy,

    Neils stuff looks great on paper. But as you know when trapping the first bird with a fast trigger vs a slow trigger you can spot the difference right away.

    I shoot a pull trigger Rem. 3200 which has a very fast adjustable trigger. When shooting slower guns with the same POI I have to use as much as an extra foot of lead to compensate. HMB
     
  19. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I think Neil is spot on.<br>
    <br>
    As for movement of the gun, if you have a smooth, steady swing, I can't see how lock time would be any issue whatsoever.<br>
    <br>
    The ONLY situations lock time could be important for shotguns, in my opinion, is if the shotgun has an abnormally slow lock time, like perhaps the Browning Recoilless, for accurate slug guns, and possibly for turkey shotguns.
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    "Shoot a Remington 1100 for 10,000 targets and then pick up a Mach 1 .. see if you miss any... . Please don't bet if you are going to try this... . (been there done that)"

    Jerry B.

    You have that right Jerry!

    How many times have we heard some of best shooters in trap say, it's a game of inches, not feet? If that's true, seems to me quicker would also be more precise? I'd choose the MachOne Infinity for mine. Hap
     
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