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Lock Time Question?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by sglfr45, Jun 1, 2007.

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  1. sglfr45

    sglfr45 TS Member

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    Which has a quicker lock time - K-80 or Perazzi? Matt
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    They are close enough to the same, but the K-80 is probably fractionally faster.

    Neil
     
  3. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    I received this from Dennis DeVault; it doesn't compare the two but does give a few examples of lock times:

    " Several years we purchased a machine form a person in Oklahoma, Albert Divorsic, he manufactures a machine that electronically measures five different area of a trigger. One being lock-time and with a computer you can check the consistancy of a trigger. We have measured several triggers and recorded the lock times, Perazzi 2.5 to 3.5 milliseconds depending on the spring. A Winchester Model 12,(7 milliseconds.) Ljutic 3.5 milliseconds. An original Seitz gun 2 milliseconds. Again, speed is not the most important thing but consistancy from shot to shot. The mind can adapt to any lock time but what it has a hard time coping with is a trigger that changes from shot to shot.

    Dennis DeVault"
     
  4. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    So, that means if I shoot a model 12, I have time to change my mind. ...

    Jim
     
  5. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I always thought my Ljutic had the fastest lock time on any gun I ever shot, and no creep.
     
  6. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Perazzi with leaf springs is faster than the K-80 which has coil springs. If the Perazzi has coil springs they are about equal. HMB
     
  7. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    Perazzis are pretty slow on average when you factor in the times when you have to change the spring.
     
  8. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Not really, when you carry another trigger group, you just slap it in between shooters...

    lol

    Jim
     
  9. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

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    All I know is that when i pull the trigger the target breaks at the same time. Now ,how much faster does my lock time have to be????????????
     
  10. ccw1911

    ccw1911 Member

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    Seems to be some questions about locktime so I'll throw in my 2cents based on over 30 years of trigger jobs on competition guns. There is actual locktime and perceived locktime. Locktime is purely mechanical and is the amount of time that passes after the sear releases the hammer (or striker) and the firing pin hits the primer. Very small time differences between most shotguns. Perceived locktime is the amount of time that you as an individual feel has passed between giving the shoot command to your trigger finger and the gun actually fires. Many things can cause a gun with a decent mechanical locktime to be perceived as having a slow locktime. Trigger pretravel, creep, weight, total travel, are some that effect perception. As an example take a double action S&W revolver, which mode has the quickest locktime, double or single action? Most will answer the double action is much slower but in reality the single action is slower. The difference in mechanical locktime is tiny, but that tiny difference is because the hammer locks back just a little further back in the frame when cocked manually on most revolvers. When trigger cocked in double action mode it is released a little sooner. The manually cocked hammer has to travel further causing the actual mechanical locktime to be slower.


    Even though there are mechanical locktime differences I think the difference most people notice between shotguns is mostly in perception. If you are used to pulling thru an average long take up, long travel, not too smooth, 6lb shotgun trigger, and pick up a gun with a crisp 2lb trigger, it's going to go off much sooner than you expect it to. Not because of the mechanical locktime but because your trigger finger is not trained for the crisp 2 lb trigger. Going the other way a light trigger shooter will have to put more and more pressure on the trigger than he's used to and will probably be late. A very experienced shooter may have less problems changing because most people start with heavy trigger guns, but fewer go on to very light trigger and develop more advanced trigger control. As an aside I've found no matter how light I make my trigger after a few weeks it feels too heavy when trying to make a difficult shot, just human nature.


    I do believe if you change guns with very different trigger systems or just the trigger, you should give yourself some time to adjust to the trigger before changing poi. You've already trained yourself what you need to see when the gun fires to hit the bird, change poi and now you have that to re-learn as well as the new trigger system. In other words train your trigger finger first.


    In offhand rifle and pistol shooting mechanical locktime is critical. When you see the sight picture you need, the gun needs to fire right now, the longer it takes the bigger chance for you to drift off before the bullet gets launched. In clay bird shooting it's more timing related, the brain makes calculations based on past success hitting the bird so any change can cause a missed bird. I think consistency is the most important factor, with the actual pull weight, take up, and travel being an individual choice once you develop some trigger control. I know it's a popular belief that trigger control is not that important with a shotgun but I have seen students with poor enough trigger control miss even with the shotgun. Unless you have shot some of the other precision disciplines, it's difficult to learn good trigger control shooting trap with the sloppy systems on a lot of stock shotguns. It sure doesn't hurt to have a nice crisp trigger to go along with the consistency that you're getting with the high end guns and trigger systems. No matter what you shoot, dry firing with an UNLOADED gun is the way to learn trigger control.

    I've written this in relation to pull trigger systems, release triggers are a different universe for me. I've built them and understand how they work but don't have much experience shooting with them. You guys who hit the trigger from the front of the trigger guard with 20lbs of slap can disregard too. LOL

    Ross
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Ross, that was a great explanation on trigger perceptions!! Thanks for taking the time to post that!

    "In offhand rifle and pistol shooting mechanical locktime is critical. When you see the sight picture you need, the gun needs to fire right now, the longer it takes the bigger chance for you to drift off before the bullet gets launched."

    Its my opinion that a great consistent trigger is important in the shotgun games as well. It's been said many times by the top shooters that trap shooting is a game of inches, not feet as some think. Here is where that trigger consistency pays off in shotgunning also, same as the rifle and handgun. It has to go when you say it should as you say, at least it does for me or I don't shoot worth a hoot with an ill trigger. Thanks guy! Hap
     
  12. A201

    A201 TS Member

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    Try a Brownimg recoilless trigger some day, the lock time is measureable with a sun dial on a cloudy day. Roger
     
  13. ccw1911

    ccw1911 Member

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    Thanks Hap, I agree with you that trap is a game of inches, there is more precision needed than it looks like.

    Roger the recoilless is very slow, reminds me of the time I tried to shoot birds with a flintlock.

    Ross
     
  14. Big Heap

    Big Heap TS Member

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    Part of Al Ljutic's sales pitch was that his triggers were so fast the shot was coming out of the barrel of his guns while the primer was just being hit in the competitors guns.
     
  15. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    big heap, that's before silver seitz was built. i think seitz is the fastest trigger there is.
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    A consistent trigger is important to me. A trigger that is 2 one thousands of a second faster than another trigger is not real important to me. I can't even lift my head off the stock in two thousands of a second.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Pat with a little practice, I'm sure you can do it. HMB
     
  18. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    My Mach One has a pretty fast trigger, but I have been able to lift my head faster than the trigger pull with practice, especially on the 25th right hand angle bird with a run of 99. Fred
     
  19. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    The Mach-one is faster then a Silver Seitz but not by much .
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Fred- I did the same thing last month with my slower K-80 trigger. Odd how sometimes a score of 99 is not very good.

    Pat Ireland
     
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