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Lock time of popular trap guns

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Border Bandit, Apr 3, 2009.

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  1. Border Bandit

    Border Bandit Well-Known Member

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    After discussing the subject with interested parties over the years, and doing an on-line search, it's hard to sort out myth from fact, as to lock time rankings, fastest to slowest, and more importantly, does it matter.

    So far as the "does it matter", question is concerned, how far does a target on the trap field travel from the time the trigger is pulled/released until the shot arrives at the target? Also, is it of consequence on the 16yd line vs the 27, and does target angle, right to left come into play when discussing faster vs slower lock time?

    I've been told that Silver Seitz, among others, has very fast lock time and that some shooters, say, one who has shot a Remington 870 for years, would have difficulty learning to successfully shoot this gun. I've been party to anecdotal discussion, over the years; but never seen those data which support the various sides of the argument, one way or the other.

    Surely, there are many who will happily tell us what they think, or have observed; but does anyone actually know the answer(s), and are there data to support discussion on the subject.

    Thanks in advance. ...........mike
     
  2. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Don't think... just shoot! Fred
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mike, really fast lock times - as with the Seitz you mention - might be about 0.0015 seconds. Things like Perazzis or Berettas twice that. I'd guess Krieghoffs are a bit faster than them, based on their big hammer springs. 870's an 1100's are longer, (guessing) twice as long.

    The time to the target from 27 is about 0.14 seconds, in other words, vastly longer.

    Neil
     
  4. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    Anyone that does not think lock time has a impact needs to think again.
     
  5. wm rike

    wm rike Member

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    Hmmm. Ithaca was advertising 0.0015 second lock times 90 years ago. Is this how far we've come?
     
  6. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Ljutic is very fast. Per my computer using the Dry Fire System I hit the target from the 27 at an average of .750 of a second, at an average of 39.5-40.5 yards out.
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Dennis Devault has a device that measures elapsed time from sear release to primer strike. His Infinity and MachOnes are at the top for quickness. I agree with Phil K., it's a game of inches, not feet for precise pointing. Making the gun go bang when your data processor says it looks right is mighty important,, to some! Hap
     
  8. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    So all this being said, would the speed of the load play into the factor? It would make since that it should play into the equation of time you pull the trigger til the shot reaches the target.
     
  9. Stu Pidash

    Stu Pidash TS Member

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    Lock time is another one of those things that some will tell you that you have no choice but to have the fastest in the world because it is what they think they need to break targets.

    If ya pull the trigger and the gun goes bang then ... well ... now when you talk locktime think of miliseconds and now ask yourself just what is a few more or less miliseconds gonna do for you in that whole pull, bang, smoke-em timeframe?

    Some will say you have to have it and others will say save your money on what your going to spend to get that fastest locktime and spend it on shells.

    That is one major problem of this sport, everyone tries to buy themselves a better score when it is 99% the shooter and 1% EVERYTHING else which includes locktime of your gun.
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    There are three determinants of locktime.

    1. Spring force: more force give faster locktime.

    2. Hammer fall: Shorter distance to travel gives faster locktime.

    3. Hammer mass: Lighter hammers give faster locktime.

    As Hap says, the Mach One and Infinity design, with a huge spring and short plunger movement must be at the very top among Seitz, Bowen, and so on.

    Neil
     
  11. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Lock time is very important . If you happen to trade a trap gun with a very slow lock time for one that is very fast . We tend to learn and if you change you need to relearn .
     
  12. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    221....you forgot the Mod12! Isn't it amazing that we can break birds with them?
     
  13. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Mike, do as Hap suggests. PM Dennis DeVault. He has posted actual, measured lock times for different guns on TS.com before. Perhaps he will again. Until then, ignore the speculation posted above.
     
  14. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    The lock time on man Infinity is .0005--it is the fastest lock time out there for a production trigger. The gun is beyond my capabilities to make it perform as it can. I had to have the trigger slowed down, because I was continually short shooting targets. The gun is like get a Ferrari after you been driving a F-150 all your life. No way you're going to make a hair-pin curve until you learn new driving techniques.

    Phil Berkowitz---Infinity#229
     
  15. lc

    lc TS Member

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    I'm with Kiner on this subject, lock time makes a huge difference.
     
  16. RickN

    RickN Well-Known Member

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    Well, how huge of a difference can it possibly make?
     
  17. Stu Pidash

    Stu Pidash TS Member

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    A big enough difference that many people believe it and have bought into it all.

    At some shooting events I am reminded of the movie Tin Cup where Costner is in his camper home with all the crazy golf gimmick gear on because he is not hitting the ball right, yep shooters are the same way. They will believe almost anything and will buy almost anything thinking it will take care of and make them a better shooter like the faster lock time of this gun vs. that gun.
     
  18. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    Ljutic in his years-ago-written insruction book for his Monogun told shooters that they needed to learn the gun due to the fast locktime; shooters would be behind targets at first. I am finding a learning curve with a release trigger; the timing is different cause the finger doesn't have to move as far if at all. A de facto faster locktime. I am sure it matters. Slower locktimes, e.g., an 870, have made me, a very average shooter, feel that the gun was somehow more forgiving. Humans can observe and be influenced by locktime.

    I also heard that the Browning Citori design, ne' the Belgium O/U Brownings, had or have very fast locktimes. Curious if this is so.
     
  19. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    As Hap suggested I do have a machine that ties into a computer. It is out to the manufacturer now for an update and calibration. When I first bought the machine in 1996 I started to check the lock times of several models of shotguns. What we discovered was the variance in the locktimes of triggers in many of the guns tested. The important thing I learned was the trigger sears had to be very hard and then polished for a consistant pull. The mind can adapt to any lock time but it does not have the ability to cope with change in the timing from shot to shot. When I did the original test below were some of the results and also the times were recorded in milliseconds and the machine was calibrated to 1 tenth of one millisecond in accuracy. The Silver Seitz fastest time 1.5 milliseconds slowest 2.5 milliseconds. Ljutic averaged 3.5 milliseconds. Original Seitz 2 milliseconds. Perazzi varied from 2 to 3.5 milliseconds depending on the main leaf spring. Winchester Model 12 (10) milliseconds. Remingtom Model 31 pump 12 to 14 milliseconds. Machone and Infinity .5 of one millisecond. I have stated this before, the lock time is important but the greater importance is that the trigger go off at about the same point shot after shot. A little story about this, some years ago I was at a live bird shoot and there was one shooter that was having a tough time with first barrel kills. That afternoon he sat down with me and ask if I could watch him and maybe let him know why his first barrel was failing him. He had shot the same gun for 15 years and all of a sudden the first barrel was gone. I stated to ask him questions, has your gun been worked on? He told me that he broke the bottom barrel hammer the month before and took it to a local gunsmith to replace the broken hammer. He requested that the trigger pull be reset to the original 3-1/2 pounds. He stated to me that the trigger was perfect on the pull weight and even brought out the trigger scale to show me. That night he came to my shop and I put the trigger on my machine and the lock time was about 6 milliseconds and it did indeed have a 3-1/2lb pull weight. Then I took the gun apart and discovered the problem, the gunsmith did the oldest trick in the book, he did not want to take the time to stone the sear face and change the ingagement angle to lighten the pull weight. So he cut 3 coils off the main spring to bring the weight down. I happened to have a spare spring and I installed that in the gun and stoned it until the pull weight was proper. We put it back in the test stand and checked the lock time again, it was 3 milliseconds. 100% faster than before. The guy went out the next day and in a 25 bird race and only missed 3 pigeons with the first barrel. This machine was the best money I ever spent because it takes all the guess work out of the equation. With out that machine I could not have made a positive assesment of his problem. I would have put the new spring in when I discovered it had been shortened but I could not have know what the final outcome would be. Just fuel for thought, but whatever you shoot make sure it fits proper, get some good coaching, and just enjoy shooting with your buddies.

    Dennis DeVault
     
  20. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    "Anyone that does not think lock time has a impact needs to think again"

    What kind of impact does it have? Good or bad?
     
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