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Ljutic Upgrade...........

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by biff, May 29, 2008.

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  1. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Just a heads up for improving your Ljutic's performance!

    Ljutic is now offering an upgrade from the music wire hammer spring they have used for years. They are now offering a Chrome Silicon wire hammer spring, which I have been using since January(shooting and dryfiring over 7000 times). I was curious as to how this spring was holding up with continued use and when I checked it, there was no loss in its length or compression strength! Chrome Silicon is the material used in auto and racing valve springs which lose nothing when heated or compressed millions of times.

    Jimmy Ljutic can speed up the monogun and other Ljutic models triggers, he calls it "Hotrodding" the trigger for a faster lock time. In addition to these CS hammer springs, they also offer a lightweight firing pin which can increase the lock time speed . With these upgrades, your Ljutic will be even better! Thanks,Biff
     
  2. Big Heap

    Big Heap TS Member

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    One of Al's sales pitches was that when the trigger was tripped on a model 1100 and a Monogun at the same time, the shot would be out of the barrel of the Monogun before the shell fired in the 1100. Turned out that both were faster than was I.
     
  3. biff

    biff Active Member

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    I hesitated posting this info for several reasons.

    #1 was knowing something which would give me an edge, made me want to keep it to myself. Leo had told me the reason you don't see many Ljutics in the winners circle was due to the hammer spring inconsistency, I listened.

    #2 is the fact you can tell trapshooters something which could help them and they will argue, disagree, or just ignore these presented facts. Maybe I'm the only Ljutic shooter that something like this matters, everyone else is shooting a different make gun! Biff
     
  4. Big Jack

    Big Jack Well-Known Member

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    I had heard that someone was working on a plunger type trigger group for a Ljutic. Would make sense, straight line to the firing pin, short stroke. I first heard about it a year ago, I guess development takes time.

    Big Jack
     
  5. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Jack, I heard from Merlyn that Alferman built two triggers using their system on the Ljutic platform which was a great improvement. He sold one to a fellow up East who never paid him and Dave Wolke of Shotgun Specialties a Ljutic dealer sold the other one to a shooter in Virginia? I think. Alferman builds a great trigger with a hammer system which is so fast it is similar to a striker system.

    I got and get chewed out everytime I say this but if you look at the basic design of a Seitz, Alferman, Bowen, and a MachOne they all LOOK like a Ljutic! It appears to me that they all have trigger systems superior(and more complicated) to the Ljutic. Ljutics are very simple well made guns which I can take apart or work on, I wouldn't attempt to try to take a Seitz trigger apart( especially since I don't own one!)

    I do know using the Chrome Silicon wire hammer spring Ljutic is now offering is an improvement, at least it is to me. Last year I asked a Ljutic shooter when he last changed his hammer spring. He said,"Never". I asked him how long he had owned his Ljutic and he said "Eight years,the hammer spring ain't never broke." That day he broke an 85 in singles. Biff
     
  6. WNCRob

    WNCRob Member

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    John,

    There is so much discussion about locktime...the differences are probably not noticeable to most shooters. Its all in what you're used to. Shooting trap is not super critical to the extent that a faster locktime will make much difference, unlike USPSA or IPSC where trigger action and control is crucial. The beauty of the Ljutic is in its simplicity and durability...no creep...absolute consistency round after round...just right.

    I wonder if it makes any sense to have any other springs fabricated out of the carbon silicon steel?

    Rob M.
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Biff, I can see more shooting consistency with a more durable coil spring also. It's been said here many times, the human mind is capable of detecting the slightest nano second differences with change. The problem with most coil springs, that change is so gradual that most dismiss it as another problem!

    ""Eight years,the hammer spring ain't never broke." That day he broke an 85 in singles. Biff"

    I too have shot some terrible scores with a weak spring or worn pins and didn't know the difference till I put in new pins and a new coil spring!! Thanks for sharing my friend!!! Hap
     
  8. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Hap, you are right. It's not the lock time that seemed to be causing problems, we can adjust our mind to get used to a particular speed. What was driving me crazy was the weakened music wire causing an inconsistency in the lock timing when going after the angle targets. All the Chrome Silicon wire does is to continue giving the same amount of spring pressure, it has nothing to do with giving a fast lock timing. Jimmy Ljutic really seems to enjoy speeding up Ljutic triggers which will give a faster lock time(I'm still getting used to the one he did for me!)

    Jayzap, it's not you, it really is the gun! Why do you see so many used Ljutics sitting on dealers shelves? It's a shame Ljutic has been putting a .15 cent hammer spring in their guns for years. People try one, shoot it well and then all of a sudden they don't feel they are shooting it good anymore, so they trade it or sell it! They are one of the best bargains of all the trapguns for the money and it is because of the slight flaw in their hammer spring! I would love to see Ljutic LLC do an upgrade on all their fine old guns with the new spring they offer. But that is another one of my "Get out your tinfoil hats, Biff is posting again!"

    During my researching the hammer spring topic for Ljutic, I talked with Jim Forscbach and he related how he had used a better wire for a hammer spring in the Ljutic he was shooting years ago. I consider Jim the most knowledgable trapshooter and person I know, I have the highest respect for him! Biff
     
  9. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Ajax, you raise an interesting possibility. How did you come up with this idea? When I break my gun open, I try to be as consistent as possible each time so there isn't variance as to where the hammer stops when it is cocked by the cocking rod. Biff
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Ajax- I was not aware that the hammer also pushed the cocking rod into place. You have made an excellent point.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Ajax I wonder if the cocking rod could have a spring installed in someway which would retract the cocking rod after it cocks the hammer? The way it is now is good reason to polish and only use a light coating of oil on the cocking rod; keeping your cocking rod clean and free of debris would also help. Thanks, Biff
     
  12. biff

    biff Active Member

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    OK Ajax, I had to check this out for myself. After the Monogun is fired, the hammer IS resting against the cocking rod. When the hammer is cocked, the cocking rod is free to travel forward and is not forced against the hammer. It can move freely if it isn't gummed with oil or grease and can slide forward away from the hammer when the gun is closed after breaking it open to reload. If it stays back against the hammer because it is gummed up, then it will move forward at the same time the hammer falls and could possibly cause drag maybe causing inconsistent lock times as you mentioned.

    While I had my cocking rod out, I cleaned the hole it travels in, but did not polish it which I intend to do next. I did however put the cocking rod in my drill and polished it. When I reinstalled it, I used no oil on the rod and only coated each end with a slight dab of grease. I cocked the gun and took the forend off, the cocking rod moved forward easily when the barrel was pointed down and had no contact with the hammer. Mounting the gun did NOT cause the cocking rod to slide backwards toward and against the hammer. So it is my feelings the cocking rod can but doesn't have to change the lock time. Again thanks for your insight in making the Ljutic perform as it should. Biff
     
  13. PMAY

    PMAY TS Member

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    Biff,
    I do not find the spring or firing pin you describe on the Ljutic site. Where can I find out prices and whether there are heavy adn light springs?
    Pat
     
  14. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Ajax, You have been deeper into this thing than I. I stopped fooling around with "The Gun of the Week" and have been shooting my Centennial Monogun for exactly Two years now exclusively. It is much more gun than I'll ever be shooter and I am learning to get the feel of it and appreciate it more every time I go to a shoot.

    Ajax, I'm a little curious as to why you shared the info about having a spring loaded cocking rod, what other good information on improving a Ljutic's performance you are willing to share with the rest of us?

    Your spring loaded cocking rod sounds interesting. I would like one of the Titanium pushrods inside the hammer spring, but have no access to one; however I have polished my pushrod. I also polished my cocking rod and the hole it moves in; when I put it back, I put it back dry(no oil) with only a very small amount of light greas on the tip. Now when I cock my Ljutic I can hear the rod slide back and forth freely when I raise or lower the barrel, I'll just be careful when I mount the gun so it stays forward out of the way of the hammer. I'm going to try it at the Tennessee State Shoot and see if it stays clean, it's not hard to clean or check(biggest danger is not to lose any of the small pins).

    The new Chrome Silicon springs are only good to give the consistenty to the hammer fall, not how fast it falls. Also to keep it's compression rate the same for years, I hope.

    Pat, Ljutic's site isn't known for being up to date, just that they are still open and making guns. You have to ask for one of the new light weight firing pins and ask specifically for the Chrome Silicon wire hammer springs. You may have to speak to Jimmy as he is the one I have conversed with and got my springs from, he knows all about them--he is the one who winds and heat treats them! John Payne
     
  15. pdq

    pdq Member

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    I own a Mono that's had about 5-6,000 shells through it. Early in 2006 I started having a problem where it was dimpling the primer, but without enough force to cause the shell to fire. I called and spoke to a tech at Ljutic & they said it was a fatiqued main spring. Given I had 2 spare parts kits, I grabbed a fresh spring and they talked me through the replacement, which fixed the problem. I only shot he gun a few more times after that, but I wouldn't get too concerned, as it was a very straightforward process to put a new spring in.

    In the course of the conversation he said they'd recently started using a spring with a thicker diameter, but didn't mention if it was a different type steel. I bought 2 of them given I had 2 spare parts kits, upgrading them. pdq
     
  16. Shotgun Specialties

    Shotgun Specialties Active Member

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    Biff has definetly made the wheel better with the spring material improvement. All of our new Mono Black Diamonds with the One Touch adjustable rib have these improvements included. Doug
     
  17. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    Sounds great, Doug.

    Hope to see you at the Iowa State Shoot again........

    And bring one of those Black Diamonds with a release trigger, will you?

    I'd love to try one out.

    Hauxfan!
     
  18. Dahaub

    Dahaub Active Member

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    Biff I have a mono gun also and Thanks to your thread I've ordered my upgrade today. :) I hope to have it by the weekend. I want to shoot the new set-up and Ljutic told me today to get it now and practice with it before the Grand gets here cause it's a big difference and takes some getting used to. I still have my gun go off when pulling on a bird occasionally because I am tightening up on the trigger. It doesn't happen often but it does happen to me still and I'll need the practice with the new faster feel. Can't wait to try it out. Thanks again for letting the rest of us know that the upgrade was available. Dan
     
  19. Ljutic78s

    Ljutic78s Member

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    Just ordered a hammer spring,and spring loaded fireing pin,ljutic gunsmith says this is the ticket,has anybody used the spring loaded fireing pin????? He said it makes the trigger faster?? Thanks John
     
  20. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Doug, Thanks for your kind words! I want to thank you for all your ideas that went into the design of "Centennial" Monogun I am now shooting, it the best gun I have ever shot. I'm glad you have become a Ljutic Dealer again, with your knowledge of shotguns, you and your dad are quality dealers. Shooters will benefit from your years experience selling top quality guns. As much as I love my Centennial, your Black Diamond sure sounds like a step up for me!

    Dan, the spring won't make it THAT much faster, it will just make it better and you will like the light weight firing pin as well. If your release is pulling through, it might be something you need to have Jimmy look at, you don't need that on your mind when you are on the line shooting. Ajax had a good tip in degreasing the cocking rod as it can cause drag and slow down the hammer fall. I took mine out and polished it, I replaced without any oil or grease except on each end....with the gun cocked I can now hear it slide freely back and forth. Now when I mount my gun I will try to keep it in it's forward position as if it were held forward with a spring like Ajax has his! Biff
     
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