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Let's put this to rest on 1250 fps shells

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Mar 5, 2013.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Let

    Do shooters shoot the Winchester Super Handicaps @ 1250 fps?

    Do shooters use the Remington NITRO 27s @ 1235 FPS?

    Now does the SAAMI specs of Plus or Minus 90 fps apply or not?


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  2. 3357

    3357 Member

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    I shoot the Winchester Silver Bullet (factory stated 1250 fps printed on each box). I have never considered the SAAMI specifications as these shells are accepted as legal by the ATA, and I really like the way they break targets. Just my opinion, but I really hope we can let it rest now.
     
  3. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Folks, if you could only see the PM's behind this you'd cry.
     
  4. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Where in the rules does it say anything about Dram Equivalent? Rules are on the link above. The FPS. is listed on the box of shells, and perfectly legal.

    Wayne


    wayneo_2008_0303244.jpg
     
  5. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Just so we don't go through this again, LS believes that you take the speed of your shell, say 1340 , and then you get to subtract 90 from that giving you 1250. Now, get this... since 1250 is legal for ATA, presto, the 1340 is also ATA legal because Saami says so.
     
  6. Straight50

    Straight50 Member

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    Gary, the SAAMI specifications do NOT apply! Only ATA rules. Plus or minus 90fps cannot be used as plus 90fps to the 1250fps 1 1/8 oz load or the 1235fps 1 1/8 oz load as such a recipe would exceed the ATA rules. Sorry! BUT, you can load up to 1290fps for the 1 1/8 load if you want, and still be within ATA rules.
     
  7. Shooter R

    Shooter R Active Member

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    Gary, your posts often have a unique humor aspect to them. That being said...

    I recall a conversaion from a Federal Amunition representative that once told me... "when a box of Gold Medals say they are rated at 1200 fps,as stated on the box (not 3 drams, as that designation is somewhat unscientific), it does not mean that the average speed is 1200fps, but that the minimun speed is 1200 fps. You are guaranteed that all shells will go 1200 fps.

    Again, that does not mean half the shells will go 1170, and half will go 1230.

    Many shooters, myself included, have chronographed Gold Medal 1200 fps shells. My average recorded velocity for these are around 1230 fps. My chrono may not be a factory quality unit, but on many occasions, that is the speed I get.

    On testing Federal's HCP Gold Medal load which has a stated velocity of 1235 on the label, I ususally chrono these at an average of 1275. They are a little too hot for me, especially in the summer.

    To your question of... "Does the SAMMI specs of + or - 90 fps apply... I don't know if Ammunition Manufacturers use this "90 fps" rule or not, but there are probably a few shells in every HCP box that "DO" go over 1290 fps (which is the legal limit in ATA for 1 1/8 oz.) in the Factory HCP versions. If they do, no one seems to care.

    It seems in your world of possibilities, a shell rated at 1200, with the leeway of a hypothetical + or - 90 fps is the max legal availabe shell. Wake up and realize it just isn't so. Some shooters walk on the edge and shoot the 1250's, and God Bless Them.

    Randy
     
  8. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    This is what specifically applies.

    1,125 oz loaded shell has a velocity of 1291 fps. Its in your pocket and your standing on the trap line at an ATA shoot. Your " DQ'd".

    1 oz loading one shell in your pocket running 1326 fps. Same situation, "DQ'd".

    7/8 oz shell in your pocket that runs 1351 fps, same situation of you on the line "DQ'd".

    Now thats easy enough for most to understand. Why don't you?.
     
  9. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Now let's go one step further: Some Shot shells say Max Dram Equivalent!!

    What does this mean, it does not say to what dram could be 2 Dram 2 1/2 Dram
    3 Dram 3 1/4 Dram 3 1/2 dram all of these shells are loaded by Mfgrs and SAAMI standards on all factory Loads is Plus or Minus 90 fps.

    Those are SAAMI specifications not mine, not the ATA's The ATA says 1 1/8th 1290 fps max, if a Mfgr loads the 1290fps shells then SAAMI specs are Plus or Minus 90 fps so in reality it could be as high as 1380 or as low as 1200 according to SAAMI mfgrs loading specs.

    This is absolutely true going to the extreme end of the limits.

    Now if a Super Hdcp Winchester Chrono'd at 1340 it is a legal shell according to SAAMI, that is cut and dried and any court would support this load if it got to court.

    That is strictly because the ATA removed the 3 dram 1200 fps wording in the rule book. In the 1970s Target shells were up to 1260 you were allowed 5%
    but most shells were 1210 max speed in the 60s and 70s

    If an NITRO 27 @1235 fps SAAMI allows 1325 fps max and 1145 fps minimum.
    Regardless of what the ATA specifies.

    Neil Winston pulled this SAAMI specs in his intrepretation of MFGRS Limits.

    Just changing the rule book from the 1960s specifying 3 dram 1200 fps shells.

    The Mfgrs hold close to those tolerances.

    Believe it or not Some Grand American Shells had more than an 1 1/8th oz which is 492 grains of shot Some Federals Loaded for the Grand had up to 520 Grains of shot.

    Why?

    Because they wanted the publicity of the wins with their shells.

    Publicity of the winning shells. SELLS THEM.

    Federal Papers were the choice years ago bar none, you ask why, because they were faster and had more shot in them, and that Red Base got a lot of targets called dead as they saw a piece, it was that RED Hard Plastic Base that seperated.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  10. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen anybody so bullheadly stupid in all my life. If Pheasantmaster's post don't explain it, you are just not gonna get it.

    Take your bloody meds and go to bed for Pete's sake.
     
  11. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Last part to understand his dementia. You need to understand that Saami standards do not add/ subtract 90 fps from the speed of ANY shells. He can't grasp this. The 90 plus/minus is a range around the Saami standard speed for a particular DE. There is no such thing as 1250 plus / minus 90 since 1250 is not a baseline speed for any of the DEs.

    Shell speed is never adjusted for the 90. Shell speed is shell speed, all you do with it for ATA is compare it to max of 1290, period. To determine DE, you compare speed to the DE base plus or minus 90. You never adjust the speed for the 90, it only serves to give a range to the definition of any particular DE.
     
  12. CharlieAMA

    CharlieAMA TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Wow- Is this another one of those 7 1/2 or 8 deals. I'll have to get more popcorn.
     
  13. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

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    SAAMI specs are based on 1200fps plus or minus 90fps..All published handicap loads are legal at 1230-1235...Why is that so hard for you to understand Gary....
     
  14. Al391brown

    Al391brown Member

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    Dr longsh*t likes to waste our time! But we love it cause he's hilarious!!!
     
  15. Ken Brandt

    Ken Brandt Active Member

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    Gary;

    Now you have gone and done it. The train has offically wrecked and hit the load of cattle on the crossing. Now my screen is all covered in Bu11$&it again.
     
  16. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't the rule say "no single shell above 1290?" Not sure where SAAMI comes in there...
     
  17. Jacob Guthrie

    Jacob Guthrie Member

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    This is to the point I think for 10 minutes about a reply, give up, and go to bed.
     
  18. 9point3

    9point3 Well-Known Member

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    Here is a question.

    Where does the fact that different bore diameters render different velocities? One of those hot Sporting Clay loads might be under the legal threshold in a back bored gun. Would that shell be ruled illegal because it says so on the box?

    Or would it have to be run over the chrono just like a reload?
     
  19. TEXASZEPHYR

    TEXASZEPHYR Member

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    When is the last time someone saw a shell being challenged at a shoot, If so how did they test it?
     
  20. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Who tests the shells speed at ATA shoots? HMB
     
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