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Lead Shot hardness tester?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bird Grinder, Feb 13, 2010.

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  1. Bird Grinder

    Bird Grinder Member

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    Does anyone make one that I could buy? Has anyone on here ever make one?
     
  2. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    WHY?????
     
  3. Bird Grinder

    Bird Grinder Member

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    To find out the factory shells that have the hardest shot. Gun Clubs, Top Guns or Super Targets.
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Grinder, first you measure the shot with this or a caliper

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Then here's the equipment apart:

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    And together, with a pellet on the anvil and the block about to be removed, dropping the crusher

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    and you can see how it works, soft shot on the right.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Neil
     
  5. TEXASZEPHYR

    TEXASZEPHYR Member

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    If you are not concerned about the brinell hardness nrs, you could find out which is the hardest/softest by doing a simple test. If you find something fairly heavy, ie a piece or rail scrap. hold the thing over a piece of shot at a specific distance and drop it. If the shot being tested were all the same exact size, the one that squashed out the most would be the softest, and the one that squashed out the least would be the hardest. A mic. or dial caliper could give you the difference in size of the beginning and ending product. This is basically the same thing you do when measuring the fit of crank bearings by measuring the width of the plastic tape after torquing down a rod cap, and removing it. Not scientific, but should give you an answer as to which is hardest.

    Bob
     
  6. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    Neil has put the pictures of his on this site. Mine is very similar to Neils. I've put together a drop tube that can compare different brand of shot. By dropping a weight from a certain height and measuring the amount the pellet deforms. It's not perfect buy it does give you an idea of the hardness of different brands.

    Or you could melt some into a 45 caliber slug and run a Saeco hardness tester on it as I do when I'm making ingots for shot.

    Ajax
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I have a system very similar to the one Neil pictured for us. Keep in mind that it does not actually measure the hardness of shot, but only the relative hardness of the shot tested. If I could find a well calibrated torque wrench, I could make a simpler system with a screw and a threaded hole in a steel block.

    After testing a lot of shot and patterns, I have concluded that shot hardness is somewhat important for long range handicap but much less important for singles and doubles. I also concluded that shot hardness is a minor factor when compared to keeping my head on the stock and seeing the target well and paying attention to what I am doing on the line.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    If you want to check readings in brinell, get yourself a LBT bullet hardness tester and make a pedestal adaptor to nest a BB.
     
  9. redhawk44

    redhawk44 Member

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    If I wanted to just compare one shell to another, I would select samples from each shell and simply weigh the samples on a powder scale that is sensitive to 1/10 grain. I would then weigh 10 shot from each sample

    Since Antimony is the hardening agent, and since Antimony is lighter than lead, the lightest of the samples should be the hardest.
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Since you don't care whether your answers are right or wrong, Redhawk, I'm sure that system would "work for you." Not anyone else, of course, because they want the right answer.

    Neil
     
  11. redhawk44

    redhawk44 Member

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    Now neil, there is no need for nasty LOL....of course if you really wanna, I can oblige you.

    What the opening poster was looking for was a way to see which over the counter shells had the hardest shot, not the actual hardness expressed on the rockwell (or other) scale(S).

    Don't you kinda think that if he did as I advised that he might achieve his goal? ;)
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, redhawk, no. Your plan assumes that all the shot be the same size - say 8's are 0.090 - but some are, some aren't. Your approach, which is a density one, requires you know not just the weight, but also the volume of the crown, or in this case, pellets. And you don't know that, since counting won't tell you that.

    Neil
     
  13. redhawk44

    redhawk44 Member

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    And you don't think that in weighing 10 or 100 of each will adaquately compensate for the difference in size of the individual pellets to the point where an average weight would be accurate?

    Look neil, I know you have a fascination for exploring the intricacies of minute points, but all this guy wants to do is compare the hrdness of one load of pellets to another.

    I really think that by weighing a sampling of the pellets in question, he would get the answer he is searching for, but if you disagree, then try it both ways and tell us what you get....LOL

    He probably already has a powder scale, and he may even have a micrometer, so he can answer the question before the box of laboratory equiptment arrives....;)
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Redhawk, it won't work.

    Weighing more will do better and better at getting an average weight, but won't tell you anything about density. Yours is a density test. To do that kind of test, you need to know volume. Counting pellets will not tell you anything at all about volume.

    The way to test pellet hardness is to test pellet hardness as my equipment does, not infer it with useless formulas and silly assumptions.

    Neil
     
  15. redhawk44

    redhawk44 Member

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    Well why not?

    We know the size don't we? and we know that there is a variation among individual pellets of +/- 1/2 size, so if we find that 100 number 8 shot from shell A weighs x grains and 100 no 8 pellets from shell B weighs 5 grains less, then we know that the pellets from shell B are lighter than the pellets from shell A.

    Now, since it is the amount of antimony that makes some shot lighter and also harder than other shot, couldn't we infer that the lighter pellets are harder than the heavier pellets?

    Granted, there is a certain variation in the size of shot within it's size designation, but that is the reason for weighing more than one shot at a time and granted that the precise DEGREE of hardness would remain an unknown, but wouldn't it be reasonable to infer that the lighter pellets, if given the same size designation, were the harder ones?

    Annnnndddd, if one was really that unsure of the shot being of comparable sizes, couldn't that be rather easily checked with a micrometer or a dial vernier caliper?

    Now neil, since Grinder only want's to know the COMPARITIVE HARDNESS, as he spoke of in his second post, what is wrong with my method? Too simple?LOL
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You don't know the size.

    And, of course, not just that. You don't what else is in the shot. At today's prices, lead is scrounged up from where it is available. The effect that the density is changed unrelated to the ratio of lead to antimony.

    For homework, how much lighter is Magnum shot, say 5% antimony compared to chilled with, say, 2%?

    Neil
     
  17. redhawk44

    redhawk44 Member

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    neil, it is your homework assignment, you figure it out. I will tell you this much though, the primary reason that most shot bars drop light charges of shot is because of the antimony mixed into the lead to make the hardened shot.

    Also, cannot we assume that the major manufacturers of shot stick to a fairly precise formula for their shot making apparatus'?

    Grinder was referring to some fairly large manufacrurers of ammunition and I think we can safely assume that it is lead and not zinc.;-)

    And whaddya mean we don't know the size? Are you saying that we can't measure a no. 8 shot pellet? LOL
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Do it your way, redhawk. If you don't care if the number you get is the right one, what difference does it make?

    Neil
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    redhawk44- One minor point. You stated that "major manufacturers of shot stick to a fairly precise formula for their shot making apparatus". My limited crush tests do not support that assumption. I also suspect that there is more in shot than lead, antimony and a little arsenic. All of these additives are lighter than lead but not all of them contribute to shot hardness.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    After a long battle I award the victory to Neil. HMB
     
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