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K80 Firing Pin problem?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by tractorboy, Apr 19, 2007.

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  1. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    My K80 was bought new in 2003 and has fired 13,000 shells through the bottom barrel. All of this time I have used Remington or Winchester primers and have never had a Fail-To-Fire. Just this past weekend I shot in a registered tournament and in 400 targets I did not have a single Fail-to-Fire and all primers were Winchester.

    A few weeks ago I purchased some Fiocchi 616 (209 style) primers. Since I have been using the Fiocchi primers I average about 8% Fail-to-Fire on the bottom barrel only. I have shot about 2000 of these primers so far and all of the Fail-To-Fire's have been on the bottom barrel. When I have a Fail-to-Fire I can open the gun and there is always a small indentation in the primer and when I close the gun and pull the trigger again the lower barrel always fires on the second attempt. I have never had a Fail-to-Fire on the top barrel, only on the bottom barrel. The Fiocchi primers have always fired in the top barrel on the first attempt. When I have a fail-to-fire in the bottom barrel the same primer will always fire if I simply close the gun and pull the trigger a second time.

    If I were having FTF's in both the top and bottom barrel when using Fiocchi primers then I would suspect the primers were the problem. However, I have never had a FTF in the top barrel when using Fiocchi primers.

    Can you tell me if my gun has a problem with the lower firing pin that requires service?
     
  2. krieghoff

    krieghoff TS Member

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    My K80 was purchased in 2003 also, I have the same problem you are describing with brand new Mirage T3's, approximately 2 or 3 times per 100 shells. In looking at the shells I have noticed that when this occurs the primer is seated a little bit deeper than the base of the shell. My solution? I don't shoot Mirage shells anymore and the problem has gone away :) No problem with Remington's, Winchesters, Rio's, Kemen's, Clay Cartridge, but I did try a box of Nobel's recently and had one shell exhibit the same problem, so I don't shoot them either. When in a tournament I don't want to be worrying about the shell.
     
  3. claycruncher

    claycruncher TS Member

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    I have had the exact same problem with multiple K80's with both Fiocchi and most recently, Cheddite primers. I sent one of my guns to Krieghoff and had them go through the entire gun (Don Baughman was the gun smith). Everything was to Krieghoff specifications and his conclusion was that some primers have a variance in the thickness of the primer cup material. I have stopped using Fiocchi and Cheddite primers and use only Winchester and Remington. A little more expensive, but problem free.

    I also agree with Gary,I would have the firing pin and hammer spring replaced. Also I have seen where there can be blow back build up around the firing pin where it inhibits the movement of the firing pin.
     
  4. pulllit

    pulllit Member

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    Location:
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    http://www.krieghoff.com/pages/downloads/K-80PartsSchematic.pdf

    The K80 uses a two piece firing pin assembly with a return spring. On steel cupped primers (.012-.013 thick) like Fiocchi and PMC it will take all the energy the hammer spring can deliver to make a good dent. If there is any crud build up like claycruncher mentioned above you will experience occasional light marks on the primer cup. The K80 bottom barrel has the firing pin assembly angled down which required more spring (#710) return pressure to seat the firing pin in firm contact with the firing pin striker/follower. It has to work against gravity plus overcome the crud build up.

    On the top barrel the firing pin assembly is angled upward with a lighter spring (#711) and gravity will help seat the firing pin in contact with the striker/follower.

    The reason primers like Winchester 209 and Remington STS continue to work is because the cups are made of soft brass (.016-.017 thick) and require less hammer spring energy to dent them.

    Bottom line is a good cleaning with a can of Gun Scrubber using the small plastic tube to spray against the primer tip. With the open action pointed down spray then allow it to soak a few seconds, and snap the hammer catching all the crud that will flow out of the firing pin hole on a close held a paper towel . Repeat this as many times it takes until there is no more crud flowing out on the towel.

    I use Fiocchi primers in my K80 and keeping the firing pin assembly clean is the only way they will work for me.

    As a side note I had the same occasional light marking problem with my Alfermann using Fiocchi primers. The Alfermann uses a straight horizontal firing pin with a light return spring to retract the pin for firm contact against the hammer. After cleaning the pin and cavity of the crud build up it worked fine with the steel cup primers. The brass cupped Winchester and Remington primers never gave me any problem.

    Jim Warner
     
  5. claycruncher

    claycruncher TS Member

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    Thanks Jim for the explanation. I didn't realize the primers were made of different materials...brass vs steel. It sure makes sense. Next time I will try cleaning the firing pin as you described. That is a lot easier than pulling the receiver apart.
     
  6. 870TB

    870TB TS Member

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    Jim nailed it.

    Adios, Dirk
     
  7. chris g

    chris g TS Member

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    Read your post and it all made sense. Local dealer out of Win 209 primers and tells me to use the Fiocchi's. No problem, load 500 shells. Every couple won't fire in my Kolar. Thought it was the gun. Now I know I'm not alone. Now what do I do with the other 400 I loaded? Already returned the balance of the primers. Back to the Win 209 and they work fine. Your firing pin is fine, chuck the primers.
     
  8. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    Thanks fellows enormously for all the great information! That is the great thing about this website; lots of great folks with a wealth of knowledge and experience who are willing to help another shooter. I had no idea the Fiocchi's had steel cups and the W209's and R209P's had brass. Thanks for the schematic drawing also; it really helps in better understanding how my K80 works inside the receiver.

    Now, I've gotta get some gun scrubber and go clean my firing pins. Thanks again for the info. Boy, I feel I've really been educated today
     
  9. claycruncher

    claycruncher TS Member

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    tractorboy let us know if the cleaning resolved the issue or if those steel cups are just too tough.
     
  10. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Jim,
    Good post.

    I bought a used K-80 and have experienced the same problem in the last two months. I was going to send it to the factory but I will try your cleaning solution.

    I am also using Fiocchi's but have also had it happen with Top Gun shells.

    Don
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The same problem became progressively worse in my K-80. I had things cleaned up and springs changed at the Southern Grand but have not tried any discount shells since that work. It is not easy to clean the firing pin housing without removal of the firing pins, and that is a delicate task in a K-80. I have not tried the method described above by Jim but I will soon. Sounds like it may work.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. claycruncher

    claycruncher TS Member

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    Jim's approach to cleaning the firing pins may work. I would like to hear back from the guys that try it.

    I have tried that approach using carburetor cleaner instead of gun scrubber. What I found was that I still had problems with the Fiocchi and Cheddite primers. When I think things are dirty, I now pull the receiver apart and change the firing pins and springs. Even with new parts, I still get the occasional primer that won't fire on the first hit. They always go off if I hit them a second time.

    My suggestion is get some training so you can remove the firing pin block after you remove the top cap. It's a lot less expensive than having to ship the gun to Ottsville or other gun smith. If you can utilize a qualified gun smith at a shoot and have them clean/replace the pins regularly you can avoid shipping and you'll know your gun is in good shape.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I also have had problems piercing Cheddite primers. Some pierce, some have to be struck twice and some go off normally. Certainly not reliable for competition. The piercing will burn the end of the firing pin. The more it gets burnt the rougher the end of the pin becomes and this results in more piercing. A vicious circle! Once the end gets burnt, you'll need to replace the pin.
     
  13. pulllit

    pulllit Member

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    I should mention that by removing the stock the firing pin cleaning process will be much easier. With the hammers cocked take a pencil or wood probe and continually push the firing pin striker/follower in full depth while spraying the Gun Scrubber into the firing pin hole. You will be surprised in the amount of crud will flow out. The same black ring soot that you notice on the breach face is also being forced up the firing pin hole. Some powders produce more soot than others. I use Titegroup and Promo and it does not take long to get dirty.

    Of course all the cleaning in the world will not help if there is a weak or broken firing pin return spring. A weak hammer spring, worn off firing pin, worn striker/follower, or hard steel primer cup material all could add to the problem of occasional miss fires.

    The solvent or spray oil (WD40, Ed's Red, Rem Oil, etc) used for routine cleaning can creep into the firing pin cavity and will mix with the powder soot into a carbon crud that will retard the firing pin.

    Jim Warner

    (edit) I noticed that claycruncher was posting at the same time I was. I had the exact same problem with the Cheddite primers piercing through and pitting the firing pin tips. I stopped using them after I noticed the pitting. The pins were replaced during the annual maintenance.
     
  14. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    Location:
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    Claycrucher said: "My suggestion is get some training so you can remove the firing pin block after you remove the top cap. It's a lot less expensive than having to ship the gun to Ottsville or other gun smith. you can avoid shipping and you'll know your gun is in good shape"

    I've been studying the schematic carefully (posted above) and would like to know how to remove the top cap. Claycruncher can you, using numbers of parts on the schematic, tell step-by-step how to get the top cap off? I would greatly appreciate it?
     
  15. tractorboy

    tractorboy Member

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    I just got in from the gun club and have great news to report!

    I cleaned the firing pin holes with gun scrubber as Jim recommended. I squirted the gun scrubber into the holes from the front and also took the stock off and using an eye dropper carefully put some gun scrubber onto the firing pin followers from the back, inside the receiver. When you put the gun scrubber solution on the followers there is a wicking action that pulls the solution down into the firing pin cavities. All the time I worked the firing pins in and out using a wooden stick. Repeated this process several times. Wow, I was astounded to see how much crud came out of the firing pin cavities.

    Anyway the result was that I shot 6 rounds this afternoon with all Fiocchi primers and did not have a single Fail-to-Fire. Normally, I would have had 8 to 12 FTF's on the 150 targets.

    Boy, am I happy. From now on it is Fiocchi for me!
     
  16. Fireball

    Fireball Member

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    And I thought the 3200's were the only guns that had firing pin problems. Only kidding.
     
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