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K-80 Blow Ups

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Gross Man, Apr 1, 2009.

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  1. Gross Man

    Gross Man Member

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    Has Krieghoff said anything about these Blow Ups? Even if the problems are bad loads or obstructions, I would be interested to hear what the gun manufacturer says. What PSI levels do they test to? Can metal fatigue develop over the life of the gun? Should we do routine inspections or testing? Has anyone sent the wreckage to Krieghoff and have they issued a report? Billy
     
  2. Bluzman98

    Bluzman98 Member

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    Why should they make any comment if the "failure" in the firearm is related to bad ammo, obstruction or user error? What would their comment be?

    It would be like asking a car manufacturer to comment on an accident caused by the driver falling asleep while driving....

    JMHO

    Jim C
     
  3. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Gross man do you have dog in this fight or just churning

    Gene
     
  4. Gross Man

    Gross Man Member

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    Gene - No dog in the fight. I am a happy K-20 owner, and think Krieghoff guns are great. I have worked around airplanes and ships most of my life (Electrical Engineer, not a Mechanical Engineer). I know about good design practice and testing. I also know a little about thermal cycling, shock, vibration and metal fatigue. My real question is if you don't make any operator errors, is there a risk of a gun blowing up. I would guess the gun manufactures would be reluctant to talk about it or release data. The easy answer is operator error, but as gun owners and shooters, should we be doing anything other that trying not to be stupid. I guess you can call this churning, but I know there is a lot of real gun knowledge on this site and I wanted to see what people knew. Thanx, Billy
     
  5. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Billy

    You have a dog in the fight- call them- they wont go into details but will tell you no

    My "guess" is that Krieghoffs are tested about about 50,000 psi equiv- which is considerably higher than many shotguns

    There are many more Krieghoffs around- that receive 50,000 rounds per year than any other brand

    no known occurance one blowing up with a factory shell

    those are my "guesses"

    I have had them for 30 years- and they are hands down the best shotguns made and in Europe- their rifles and drillings are well represented, respected and sought after also.

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  6. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    sarge, are you sure "detonation" is the correct word you want to use? I think the word is used loosely here and often incorrectly.
     
  7. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    221, yeah, c4 will burn. but if you burn it, I think that is all it does. I don't think it will detonate as a result.
    Reloading powder also burns, that is called deflagration, expanding gas is a result which gives us pressure. It does not detonate as a result of burning, at least not in shotguns. Using a blasting cap will create the shock wave needed to detonate the c4. A blasting cap will not detonate reloading powder[I realize should not say never though. I have read detonation may be possible in large naval guns.], it will still only burn.

    I am not one of the many engineers here, but I think I am up to speed. Reference one proven instance of reloading powder detonating in a shotgun.

    My point was, I think people use the term "detonation" for any thing that blows up.

    I am guessing that if detonation actually occurred in a shotgun we would see lots of small pieces like a shattered tempered glass window pane instead of just a split barrel like too much pressure in a water pipe..
     
  8. Bluzman98

    Bluzman98 Member

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    How the hell did we get to C4 burning versus the original K80 topic? Who cares about C4? It has no bearing on the topic at hand.

    Jim C
     
  9. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Jim- Maybe thats where some of the confusion lies,,,some shooters are trying to get a little more economical and use C4 in place of gun powder. Just a pinch will do ya.
     
  10. Bluzman98

    Bluzman98 Member

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    skeet...

    You may have a point there. Never thought about that.

    Jim C
     
  11. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I think that story is BS about someone getting a new gun when a 20 gauge tube was in the barrel

    Thats what the guy that blew up the gun probably wants you to belive- but what probably occurred is they gave him credit for the parts that could be reused

    Same thing happened at a club I know

    the tubes themselves can stand alone either contain or come very close to containing the standard pressure of a factory loaded shell

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  12. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    221, Perhaps blasting cap is the wrong device to mention, I don't know what is used with C4 except that it requires a shock wave that will detonate the C4 or whatever explosive is being used. Your mention of too much c4 not blowing must mean it requires a certain amount of shock per volume. The sequence you mention has to be pretty fast. It bascially all burns in some manner. The important thing to understand is that detonation is a violent shock wave and deflagration is a relatively slow burn which releases gas. And that an explosion and a detonation are not necessarily the same thing.

    I'm curious about your experience with c4. From what I have read the shock wave would cause steel to fragment. You say that isn't the case but surely there is much more destruction, say, than simply the chamber split like in the picture shown here. Don't hand grenades explode into lots of pieces instead of just a couple of pieces with the side split open?
     
  13. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    221, Thanks for the explaination.

    : southjblue, we are short on facts and long on talk. That is the way it is.
     
  14. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    Joe - "Contrary to what was posred on another thread (no incidence of blowup re. skeet shooting), there was a K80 blowup at our club last fall I believe. The person had a 20ga. tube in gun at the time. Company gave him a new gun. Question is, why K80s?"

    I NEVER said there were none....what I said was this was a complete non-issue in skeet although K80's are very, very popular skeet guns in registered shooting. I believe what I said was there was no view in the skeet community of K80's having structural integrity issues while this same subject comes up many times in the trap shooting community here on TS.com.

    I specualated that perhaps this has to do with loading max pressure shells for a game that's longer range than skeet (nobody in their right minds would even shoot factory Nitro 27's in the skeet 12 ga event...more likely to shoot 1 oz light recoil loads).

    But thanks for the input on the barrel letting loose with a 20 ga tube in it.

    I am not questioning your veracity, but is this from first hand observation or are you further removed from the subject event?
     
  15. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    By the way, I will say it again...I own, love, and shoot a K80 as do most of my skeet squad.

    Personally, I'm not worried about my gun.
     
  16. BBowen

    BBowen Member

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    Mr. Nosco (G777777777)

    Please provide the source for your statement that Kreighoff shotguns are tested at 50,000 psi.

    Please provide the source for your statement that ALL Kreighoff catastrophic failures were cause be reloaded ammunition.

    Please don't get all bent out of shape. I would just like to know.

    Question to the posters regarding "detonation in shotshells": is is possible for detonation to occur in factory loaded ammo? If so, is there recorded incidents?

    General question: How do you make a shotshell that develops more than about 22,000 psi? I have been uable to do so and if anyone has suggestions that we have not allready tried, i would be interested in the info. SAAMI proof loads are app. 20,000 and i have not been able to load anything that will develop much more.

    thanks for your information to come.

    bruce bowen
     
  17. ATLSKEET

    ATLSKEET TS Member

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    Explosion is defined as the sudden and rapid production and escape of gases from a confined space accompied by heat, shock & a noise.

    Detonation is defined as the instantaneous combustion of a solid, liquid or gas into larger quantities of expanding gases accompanied by heat, shock and a noise. I saw where someone was discussing the two.
     
  18. Gross Man

    Gross Man Member

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    Bruce -

    Can you take the gun manufacturer's point of view here? What would you do if someone sent back a gun that blew up? How are your guns and most other's tested? Can metal fatigue develop during the life of the gun? Is there a gun manufacturer's association that keeps track of these incidents?

    If I owned a gun company, I would want to do an incident investigation on everyone of my products that failed, no matter the cause. This would be part of my quality program. When Werner Von Braun ran our space program, the rule was that there was no such thing as a random failure. Each failure, even minor ones found in testing, were analyzed to determine the root cause, and corrective action was taken. I suspect most gun manufacturers have a similar quality program.

    Thanx,
    Billy
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    southjblue

    "Could we please have some facts insted of talk"

    You're asking for facts can you go back through the last couple of times that there has been a thread about shotguns(any make)blowing up. Do these threads have the type of fact you are referring to and if not why would you expect facts now?

    We so far have had a lot of discussion about "DETONATION" we have gone from shotshell to C-4 to Grenades(of different types)so tell me. Isn't spark knock a form of "DETONATION" it would seem to me that, that is how it has been explained to me. I might also add that none of the above are the same.

    What I would like an accurate description of what causes a "DETONATION" in a shotshell. Not in a artillery shell, hand grenade pope bomb or just the general definition of the word "DETONATION"

    BTW Gross man asked.

    "Has Krieghoff said anything about these Blow Ups?"

    Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe they haven't said because they do not know any more about what is causing the excess pressure than any of you do?

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Joe e- again you have the facts but got it wrong -- as you said "the guy paid a little more for an upgrade" -- yea the upgrade was to replace his destroyed guns- use the parts that could be used

    Sure the guy doesnt want everyone to know he was at fault-- that is the most likely scenario

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
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