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Juniors/Sub Juniors....Spoiled or Sponsored?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by GrizzBear33, Aug 16, 2007.

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  1. GrizzBear33

    GrizzBear33 TS Member

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    Hello all. I went to this years grand and saw something that I want to know more about. I finished shooting one day and while walking back to my car saw a group of kids shooting so I stopped and watched them. Being a SCTP coach, I like to see kids shooting good but when they walked off the line I could not stand to notice that not one of their guns had a price under $12,000. And on top of that, they were all shooting brand new STS and AA shells and not even keeping the hulls.

    Are these kids just spoiled by their parents or is it possible that some of these kids are being "sponsored" by some of these companies?
     
  2. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    The odds favor spoiled more than sponsored.
    But I fail to see the problem. Looks like they have really smart parents to me. Buy the best gun you can afford and avoid all the hassle of gun progression, just do it once and get it done. I wish I had been that smart!
    As for hulls, I rarely see SCTP kids shooting reloads so what are they supposed to do with the hulls? I think they're doing exactly the right thing, passing them onto less fortunate souls like me that have to dumpster dive for hulls to cut costs.
    I do agree that a lot of SCTP kids shoot equipment that is high end but consider the alternatives, 10,000 more kids sitting around doing nothing. Think about how much money is tied up in SCTP now, it is a very big business.
    SCTP grew by 26% last year and the growth rate for female participants is staggering. This is all good. I can are no negatives to be attached to this other than they shoot better equipment than me, oh well.

    SCTP is a great program, don't second guess it, get on board and appreciate how important this program is to the future of the sport.
     
  3. Matthew Moser

    Matthew Moser TS Member

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  4. Rico46

    Rico46 TS Member

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    Spoiled! To be honest if my folks could have afforded a higher end anything I would have likely pushed for it! The answer on gun progression makes good sense. As far as shells go with the increased costs of shot,primers and other components, I'm not sure how much you save including labor over buying lower end shells?

    The only dissapointment over "some" of the younger shooters is the hostility, I have witnessed toward fellow shooters and their parents when they don't shoot well. That would have never been tolerated by my folks..I guess times have changed. Thanks

    Rick
     
  5. blooper

    blooper TS Member

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    its rare to see the whole squad with the equipment you mentioned around here
     
  6. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    Rick mentioned hostility. Have you taken a walk through the mall lately? Very disturbing. The general breakdown in civility is very prevalent. Now I know the kids didn't stumble on it all by themselves so where do you think they picked it up?
    I am really hard on my son in this regard, he does not get to disrespect anybody, it is unacceptable. Maybe the SCTP parents could take a stronger stand in this area, I know our team has a code of conduct and it is enforced.
     
  7. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    Right on zara!
    10,000 strong and growing. And that is only in 7 years.
    I would love to know the corresponding ATA membership numbers for the same time frame. I doubt ata has grown. The SCTP movement is a wonderful thing for our sport and for the kids. Out here the trapshooters are "cool" and they are passionate advocates for their sport. 1600 of them shot at sparta, not too bad for a bunch of kids. I have only seen a couple of them that misbehaved, for the large part they show good manners and etiquette. And they are way more fun to hang with than the old crusty set that fail to see the winds of change.
     
  8. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    the conversation can go one of two ways. when you see the kid with the shiny new high end gun, you can say, nice gun kid, mind if i take a look and watch his eyes light up and you make a friend for life.

    or

    you can sit back and passively tear them down or god forbid, act like a jerk and call them a brat.

    my son has had it both ways and i know which way we both prefer it to go.

    option 1 always results in a pleasant exchange.

    option 2 always end up with me getting in somebody's face and having to teach a grown man some freaking manners.

    could you imagine playing competitive baseball, golf, football or any other sport without quality equipment. yes, it can be done on the cheap and sometimes that is necessary due to budget constraints but in the absence of those constraints what is the problem with having nice equipment, does it not enhance the enjoyment and also quite possibly the end result?
     
  9. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Every kid on the All-American team is 100% spoiled. As a parent of a 4-time All-American I'm just as guilty as the rest. Is anyone ready to admit what it costs to fund a shooter for the team. The costs are staggering and poor, great shots are never considered because parents are not well-to-do.

    As soon as junior has to pay his own freight-the parties over and 98% are never seen again.

    Yes, my kid got a K-80 when he was 11 years old!!
     
  10. Len in Phoenix

    Len in Phoenix TS Member

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    There aren't any Kreighoff's in my family, but when my 2 kids and I head for the trap club we take 6 Brownings with us. You're damn right my kids are spoiled. My parents scrimped and saved to buy me my first "real" trap gun when I was 14 years old so that I wouldn't have to overcome an equipment barrier as well as learn how to compete. Every parent wants their kids to have a better, easier, higher quality life than they did. Some do it by buying cars, others by buying electronic gadgets.....I do it by making sure my kids have equipment that is at least as good as my own. Yes, I could have a Kreighoff if I hadn't spent $10k to buy good equipment for both my kids, but then again, how much is spending time with your kids on the trap field worth?

    Len in PHoenix

    BTW.....I still have my first BT-99. It's just a backup gun now, but if my current BT-99 Plus ever breaks it won't bother me a bit to pull out the old one and go to the line with the first gun I ever ran 100 straight with.
     
  11. trapshooter1981682

    trapshooter1981682 TS Member

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    Question, who cares what type of gun they are shooting or what kind of shells. My question is people complain about these talented young kids out there shooting the Berettas, Kolars, Krieghoffs, ect, but isnt it better than them sitting at home playing on the computers, and hanging out on the streets. If the parents are able to spend a large amount of money for their child to go out and shoot their very best, then a well made gun is what they deserve. I didnt know there was a program in the ATA where any person has to program where they have to start out with a 870 or model 12 and when they are 50 they can get the 12K guns. Frankly, those kids are worth it. They are passing down a tradition of shooting sports that could be gone some day. Whatever they shoot, whether it be a $200 gun or a $20K gun, we should look at them as being sponsored or spoiled, but more as thankful for each one of them. My hats go off to each and every one of them.
     
  12. Rico46

    Rico46 TS Member

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    Zara, its unfortunate but I've witnessed acts of uncivility by youths as recent as the 2007 Southern Grand. I was on a squad with a very good sub-junior who threw at fit after shooting a 94 in doubles ( far better than my 83). While his mother was trying to encourage him that the 94 was very respectacle..he was yelling back at her "it wasn't good enough to make him an All American". She said to him.."honey some day you will be an American..his response back to her was I don't wait some day.. I want it now." I can't imagine ever talking back to my mother in that tone of voice!

    We've spent more than enough time talking about the issues of Billy and his dad this year and the young lady at last years grand who was throwing shells over her head when she missed! Learning to be a gracious winner can be a humbling experience but being a gracious loser is just as humbling!

    I have seen the future of our sport through SCTP program and the wonderful kids coming through the program. But I have also see kids no longer shooting since their parents aren't financially supporting their efforts. It would be nice of more kids to assume the financial responsibility like the young lady from Alaska Cory Cogdell has! When you read stories of young people like Cory you realize our sport does have a future.

    Rick
     
  13. vanman

    vanman TS Member

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    Remember they are but mirrored images of what they see, hear and are thought. I see many older squads ( you know! 35 and up--lol ) doing the same thing with money guns and shells but most of the time with less attitude. I'm not sure I like the label that SCTP is getting. " The Little League of sport shooting ". I like to think that sport shooting is fare more of a lady & gents game. As for the equipment! If you can't hit the basket, why do you need two hundred dollar basketball shoes?
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Regardless of family resources, it appears to me that tossing new AA/STS empties on the ground seems wasteful. If they do not want them, others do. If people learn how to save small things of value, the larger things just follow naturally. I live with some comfort but I will not pass over a penny someone else has dropped in the parking lot. After I have picked up 100 of them, I have a tax free dollar.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Whine- who cares what they shoot or where they received it from

    Everyone needs junior shooters

    This sounds like pure envy

    Gene
     
  16. chris g

    chris g TS Member

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    As the father of a 10 year old sub-junior, I read this post with mixed emotions.
    My son recently won a local ATA tournament and was thrilled to win his own shooting bag, a Cabela's canvas bag that couldn't have cost more than $20. (Most sub-junior prizes are nonexistent or crap) No complaining from him, you thought it would have cost thousands. Couldn't wait to show all the old guys at the club who's respect he's earned by shooting well and safely. Same guys who did nothing but complain and walk off the line when he first started showing up with me to shoot. I politely explained to all of the old coots that without these kids coming up behind them, it will be lights out for the sport. Maybe they are all worried that he will shoot the pants off of them in a couple of years (already outshoots some of them). Can't wait to buy him his first Kolar once he outgrows his kid's BT99. Heck of a lot cheaper than paying for Rehab.
     
  17. Texas Crew'd

    Texas Crew'd Member

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    Grizz,

    As the father of a very talented daughter I will put my two cents in.

    We have done the gun progression deal. Hindsite being 20/20 I would have started her with an MX-8. I have yet to lose money on a gun. She first started at 12 years with a Win .20ga mod 120, then a 391 .12ga, then a BT99 for her 13th birthday, at 14 she shot a round of trap with my Rem peerless that I picked up to shoot ducks with. She ran her first 100 with the peerless and won the 2004 Texas State ladies handicaps with it. She shot it until the guts were rattling around. I picked up a Beretta 680 that fit her like a glove and she shot her way onto the National Junior Olympic Shotgun Team with it. When her 680 broke a hammer 3 days before a Spring Selection match I had a very difficult time getting Beretta to repair it. She ended up shooting the final with a loner Perazzi and It has been Perazzi ever since.

    They all break, it's a matter of service and timeliness. The majority of youth shooters that I know that compete at an advance level are shooting P and K guns as well as Berettas.

    As I see it, in the big picture spending 5-9k on a shotgun is the least expensive portion of the game. Adding training rounds, bullets by the palette, reloading supplies, fuel, air fare, meals lodging ect. Competing beyond the Local and State levels as you know require somewhat deeper pockets.

    The beauty of this sport is that a 300 pawn shop special will smoke 50,000 P in the hands of the right Indian.

    The reality of the shotgun world is that a blue collar union man is standing right beside a guy with a multi million dollar bank account and the both have the same opertunity before them. I spend a lot on shooting comparitive to my income (Professional Firefighter,my wife is a Gun Club office manager). My daughters IQ is higher than my checking and savings combined. We have had a lot of help from friends/family and donors. We spend hundreds of hours talking about shotguns, rifles, pistols ,fishing, hunting, boys, politics, cars, trucks ect. I truely know my kid.

    I spend less on shooting than many parents spend on detox, rehab and funerals. My daughter has a true love of shooting. She works at the range for her targets, she bakes and sells cookies and muffins. She gladly assists new shooters young and old. She spends 10-20 hours a week on the range and many more at home mounting and working on her training plan. She also has a 98.75 GPA in advanced classes (ok had to brag a bit).

    I used to think we were the exception, but the more shooters and parents I become aquainted with and talk too the more common I think we are in the shooting world.

    Most coaches that I know will not tolerate any type of inapropriate behavior on or off the line, some will and that's a shame. They should be held accountable.

    ok so I put 3 cents worth in.

    Shoot well and have a great day,

    Garry Barney
    El Paso/Kerrville Texas
     
  18. LeftCoast

    LeftCoast TS Member

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    SCTP does have some very generous sponsors like Federal that provide ammunition at a reduced cost and even some state programs that provide limited funds. But, $12,000 guns for the kids? Come on. I’ve been with this program for four years, been to three Grand Americans and four state championships with the SCTP kids and have never seen a squad like he describes. You do occasionally see some very nice guns, but those guns usually belong to parents like me that have collected nice guns for many years and grudgingly let our teenagers shoot them. The vast majority of these kids shoot guns that would be more at home in a muddy duck blind or rattling around behind the seat of an old Ford pickup.

    The kids you saw at the Grand worked very hard to get there, and so did their parents. Today’s teenagers live in a little different world with different demands and pressures. The days of sliding into a good college with a B average are long gone. The days of paying for college with a part time job waiting tables is also a thing of the past. Kids are now competing for far fewer scholarships and openings in our colleges as a result of increased foreign student and ethnic quotas. They have to work much harder just to get into a decent college. For those that don’t go to college, the road is equally challenging. Entry level jobs, construction jobs, and nearly all of the service industry jobs are either filled by illegal aliens or simply outsourced to other countries. I’d really like to go back to the days when we jokingly complained about the “New Math” and all those teenagers behind the store counters that needed a calculator to make change.

    Are these SCTP kids spoiled? Looking back, I was spoiled teenager when I could easily get a job back in the 70’s that paid $5 an hour for operating a shovel. I was spoiled when I could always make a few extra dollars doing odd jobs on the weekends. I didn’t know it then, but I was also really spoiled with parents that spent a lot of their time with me hunting and fishing. Kids really don’t care about expensive guns and shells. The vast majority just want to be in the game competing with their friends.

    The parents you see at the Grand with their kids are a very special dedicated bunch and I can assure you that they are making sacrifices. The SCTP coaches you see are also making big sacrifices for our kids and should be commended. After working with this SCTP program for a few years, I am still constantly amazed at the ability of these SCTP kids to step up to the plate and exceed all of your expectations.

    My advice is this. Instead of sitting back and griping about the kids, try getting involved. You’ll find that these kids, as in all generations past, are bright, eager to learn and just a real joy to work with.
     
  19. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    I am with Gene on this. This sounds like pure jealosy. The discipline and motivation these kids demonstrate on the line shows they are DEDICATED, not spoiled. Their parents are dedicated to the children. Some of the worst behavior I have seen on the field has been by adults, especially those over 50.
     
  20. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Dedication is skipping lunch, running an after school trapline, using pickup wads, loading hand set traps and hustling a buck any way possible. Dedication is working in a Steel mill, buying a house and raising a family. All the while, this individual never stopped shooting in 45 years.

    My father was dedicated too. He bought me a new Model 12 Trap when I was 15 and told me it was my job to feed it.

    Spoiled is waiting for and expecting handouts but when the money tree dies run away and never return!!
     
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