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It is now impossible to pay off US debt

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by Brian in Oregon, Jan 23, 2011.

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  1. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/it-is-now-mathematically-impossible-to-pay-off-the-u-s-national-debt

    It Is Now Mathematically Impossible To Pay Off The U.S. National Debt

    A lot of people are very upset about the rapidly increasing U.S. national debt these days and they are demanding a solution. What they don't realize is that there simply is not a solution under the current U.S. financial system. It is now mathematically impossible for the U.S. government to pay off the U.S. national debt. You see, the truth is that the U.S. government now owes more dollars than actually exist. If the U.S. government went out today and took every single penny from every single American bank, business and taxpayer, they still would not be able to pay off the national debt. And if they did that, obviously American society would stop functioning because nobody would have any money to buy or sell anything.

    And the U.S. government would still be massively in debt.

    So why doesn't the U.S. government just fire up the printing presses and print a bunch of money to pay off the debt?

    Well, for one very simple reason.

    That is not the way our system works.

    You see, for more dollars to enter the system, the U.S. government has to go into more debt.

    The U.S. government does not issue U.S. currency - the Federal Reserve does.

    The Federal Reserve is a private bank owned and operated for profit by a very powerful group of elite international bankers.

    If you will pull a dollar bill out and take a look at it, you will notice that it says "Federal Reserve Note" at the top.

    It belongs to the Federal Reserve.

    The U.S. government cannot simply go out and create new money whenever it wants under our current system.

    Instead, it must get it from the Federal Reserve.

    So, when the U.S. government needs to borrow more money (which happens a lot these days) it goes over to the Federal Reserve and asks them for some more green pieces of paper called Federal Reserve Notes.

    The Federal Reserve swaps these green pieces of paper for pink pieces of paper called U.S. Treasury bonds. The Federal Reserve either sells these U.S. Treasury bonds or they keep the bonds for themselves (which happens a lot these days).

    So that is how the U.S. government gets more green pieces of paper called "U.S. dollars" to put into circulation. But by doing so, they get themselves into even more debt which they will owe even more interest on.

    So every time the U.S. government does this, the national debt gets even bigger and the interest on that debt gets even bigger.

    Are you starting to get the picture?

    As you read this, the U.S. national debt is approximately 12 trillion dollars, although it is going up so rapidly that it is really hard to pin down an exact figure.

    So how much money actually exists in the United States today?

    Well, there are several ways to measure this.

    The "M0" money supply is the total of all physical bills and currency, plus the money on hand in bank vaults and all of the deposits those banks have at reserve banks. As of mid-2009, the Federal Reserve said that this amount was about 908 billion dollars.

    The "M1" money supply includes all of the currency in the "M0" money supply, along with all of the money held in checking accounts and other checkable accounts at banks, as well as all money contained in travelers' checks. According to the Federal Reserve, this totaled approximately 1.7 trillion dollars in December 2009, but not all of this money actually "exists" as we will see in a moment.

    The "M2" money supply includes everything in the "M1" money supply plus most other savings accounts, money market accounts, retail money market mutual funds, and small denomination time deposits (certificates of deposit of under $100,000). According to the Federal Reserve, this totaled approximately 8.5 trillion dollars in December 2009, but once again, not all of this money actually "exists" as we will see in a moment.

    The "M3" money supply includes everything in the "M2" money supply plus all other CDs (large time deposits and institutional money market mutual fund balances), deposits of eurodollars and repurchase agreements. The Federal Reserve does not keep track of M3 anymore, but according to ShadowStats.com it is currently somewhere in the neighborhood of 14 trillion dollars. But again, not all of this "money" actually "exists" either.

    So why doesn't it exist?

    It is because our financial system is based on something called fractional reserve banking.

    When you go over to your local bank and deposit $100, they do not keep your $100 in the bank. Instead, they keep only a small fraction of your money there at the bank and they lend out the rest to someone else. Then, if that person deposits the money that was just borrowed at the same bank, that bank can loan out most of that money once again. In this way, the amount of "money" quickly gets multiplied. But in reality, only $100 actually exists. The system works because we do not all run down to the bank and demand all of our money at the same time.

    According to the New York Federal Reserve Bank, fractional reserve banking can be explained this way....

    "If the reserve requirement is 10%, for example, a bank that receives a $100 deposit may lend out $90 of that deposit. If the borrower then writes a check to someone who deposits the $90, the bank receiving that deposit can lend out $81. As the process continues, the banking system can expand the initial deposit of $100 into a maximum of $1,000 of money ($100+$90+81+$72.90+...=$1,000)."

    So much of the "money" out there today is basically made up out of thin air.

    In fact, most banks have no reserve requirements at all on savings deposits, CDs and certain kinds of money market accounts. Primarily, reserve requirements apply only to "transactions deposits" – essentially checking accounts.

    The truth is that banks are freer today to dramatically "multiply" the amounts deposited with them than ever before. But all of this "multiplied" money is only on paper - it doesn't actually exist.

    The point is that the broadest measures of the money supply (M2 and M3) vastly overstate how much "real money" actually exists in the system.

    So if the U.S. government went out today and demanded every single dollar from all banks, businesses and individuals in the United States it would not be able to collect 14 trillion dollars (M3) or even 8.5 trillion dollars (M2) because those amounts are based on fractional reserve banking.

    So the bottom line is this....

    #1) If all money owned by all American banks, businesses and individuals was gathered up today and sent to the U.S. government, there would not be enough to pay off the U.S. national debt.

    #2) The only way to create more money is to go into even more debt which makes the problem even worse.

    You see, this is what the whole Federal Reserve System was designed to do. It was designed to slowly drain the massive wealth of the American people and transfer it to the elite international bankers.

    It is a game that is designed so that the U.S. government cannot win. As soon as they create more money by borrowing it, the U.S. government owes more than what was created because of interest.

    If you owe more money than ever was created you can never pay it back.

    That means perpetual debt for as long as the system exists.

    It is a system designed to force the U.S. government into ever-increasing amounts of debt because there is no escape.

    We could solve this problem by shutting down the Federal Reserve and restoring the power to issue U.S. currency to the U.S. Congress (which is what the U.S. Constitution calls for). But the politicians in Washington D.C. are not about to do that.

    So unless you are willing to fundamentally change the current system, you might as well quit complaining about the U.S. national debt because it is now mathematically impossible to pay it off.

    ***UPDATE***

    It has been suggested that the same dollar can be used to pay off debt over and over - this is theoretically true as long as the dollar remains in the system.

    For example, if the U.S. government gives China a dollar to pay off a debt, there is a good chance that the U.S. government will be able to acquire that dollar again and use it to pay off another debt.

    However, this is not true when debt is retired with the Federal Reserve. In that case, money is actually removed from the system. In fact, because of the "money multiplier", when debt is retired with the Federal Reserve it can remove ten times that amount of money (and actually more, but let's not get too technical) from the system.

    You see, fractional reserve banking works both ways. When $100 is introduced into the system, it can theoretically create $1000 as the example in the article above demonstrates. However, when that $100 is removed, it can have the opposite impact.

    And considering the fact that the Federal Reserve "purchased" the vast majority of new U.S. government debt last year, we have got a real mess on our hands.

    Even if a way could be figured out how to pay off all the debt we owe to foreign nations (such as China, Japan, etc.) it would still be mathematically impossible to pay off the debt that we owe to the Federal Reserve which is exploding so fast that it is hard to even keep track of.

    Of course we could repudiate that debt and shut down the Federal Reserve, but very few in Washington D.C. have any interest in doing that.

    It has also been suggested that instead of just using dollars to pay off the U.S. national debt, we could use the assets of the U.S. government to pay it off.

    That is rather extreme, but let us consider that for a moment.

    That total value of all physical assets in the United States, both publicly and privately owned, is somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 to 50 trillion dollars. Of course the idea of the U.S. government "owning" every single asset of the American people is repugnant to our entire way of life, but let's assume that for a moment.

    According to the 2008 Financial Report of the United States Government, which is an official United States government report, the total liabilities of the United States government, including future social security and medicare payments that the U.S. government is already committed to pay out, now exceed 65 TRILLION dollars. This amount is more than the entire GDP of the whole world.

    In fact, there are other authors who have written that the actual figure for the future liabilities of the U.S. government should be much higher, but let's be conservative and go with 65 trillion for now.

    So, if the U.S. government took control of all physical assets in the United States and sold them off, it could not even make enough money to pay for everything that the U.S. government is already on the hook for.

    Ouch.

    If you have not read the 2008 Financial Report of the United States Government, you really should. Actually the 2009 report should be available very soon if it isn't already. If anyone knows if it is available, please let us know.

    The truth is that the U.S. government is in much bigger financial trouble than we have been led to believe.

    For example, according to the report (which remember is an official U.S. government report) the real U.S. budget deficit for 2008 was not 455 billion dollars. It was actually 5.1 trillion dollars.

    So why the difference?

    The CBO's 455 billion figure is based on cash accounting, while the 5.1 trillion figure in the 2008 Financial Report of the United States Government is based on GAAP accounting. GAAP accounting is what is used by all the major firms on Wall Street and it is regarded as a much more accurate reflection of financial reality.

    So needless to say, the United States is in a financial mess of unprecedented magnitude.

    So what should we do? Does anyone have any suggestions?

    ***UPDATE 2***

    We have received a lot of great comments on this article. Trying to understand the U.S. financial system (even after studying it for years) can be very difficult at times. In fact, it can almost seem like playing 3 dimensional chess.

    Several readers have correctly pointed out that when the U.S. money supply is expanded by the Federal Reserve, the interest that is to be paid on that new debt is not created.

    So where does the money to pay that interest come from? Well, eventually the money supply has to be expanded some more. But that creates even more debt.

    That brings us to the next point.

    Several readers have insisted that the Federal Reserve is not privately owned and that since it returns "most" of the profits it makes to the U.S. government that we should not be concerned about the debt owed to it.

    The truth is that what you have with the Federal Reserve is layers of ownership. The following was originally posted on the Federal Reserve's website....

    "The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation’s central banking system, are organized much like private corporations – possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year."

    So Federal Reserve "stock" is owned by member banks. So who owns the member banks? Well, when you sift through additional layers of ownership, you will ultimately find that people like the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers and the Queen of England have very large ownership interests in the big banks. But there are so many layers of ownership that they are able to disguise themselves well.

    You see, these people are not stupid. They did not become the richest people in the world by being morons. It was the banking elite of the world who designed the Federal Reserve and it is the banking elite of the world who benefit the most from the Federal Reserve today. In the article above when we described the Federal Reserve as "a private bank owned and operated for profit by a very powerful group of elite international bankers" we may have been oversimplifying things a bit, but it is the essence of what is going on.

    In an excellent article that she did on the Federal Reserve, Ellen Brown described a number of the ways that the Federal Reserve makes money for those who own it....

    The interest on bonds acquired with its newly-issued Federal Reserve Notes pays the Fed’s operating expenses plus a guaranteed 6% return to its banker shareholders. A mere 6% a year may not be considered a profit in the world of Wall Street high finance, but most businesses that manage to cover all their expenses and give their shareholders a guaranteed 6% return are considered "for profit" corporations.

    In addition to this guaranteed 6%, the banks will now be getting interest from the taxpayers on their "reserves." The basic reserve requirement set by the Federal Reserve is 10%. The website of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York explains that as money is redeposited and relent throughout the banking system, this 10% held in "reserve" can be fanned into ten times that sum in loans; that is, $10,000 in reserves becomes $100,000 in loans. Federal Reserve Statistical Release H.8 puts the total "loans and leases in bank credit" as of September 24, 2008 at $7,049 billion. Ten percent of that is $700 billion. That means we the taxpayers will be paying interest to the banks on at least $700 billion annually – this so that the banks can retain the reserves to accumulate interest on ten times that sum in loans.

    The banks earn these returns from the taxpayers for the privilege of having the banks’ interests protected by an all-powerful independent private central bank, even when those interests may be opposed to the taxpayers’ -- for example, when the banks use their special status as private money creators to fund speculative derivative schemes that threaten to collapse the U.S. economy. Among other special benefits, banks and other financial institutions (but not other corporations) can borrow at the low Fed funds rate of about 2%. They can then turn around and put this money into 30-year Treasury bonds at 4.5%, earning an immediate 2.5% from the taxpayers, just by virtue of their position as favored banks. A long list of banks (but not other corporations) is also now protected from the short selling that can crash the price of other stocks.

    The reality is that there are a lot of ways that the Federal Reserve is a money-making tool. Yes, they do return "some" of their profits to the U.S. government each year. But the Federal Reserve is NOT a government agency and it DOES make profits.

    So just how much money is made over there? The truth is that we have to rely on what the Federal Reserve tells us, because they have never been subjected to a comprehensive audit by the U.S. government.

    Ever.

    Right now there is legislation going through Congress that would change that, and the Federal Reserve is fighting it tooth and nail. They are warning that such an audit could cause a financial disaster.

    What are they so afraid of?

    Are they afraid that we might get to peek inside and see what they have been up to all these years?

    If you are a history buff, then you probably know that debates about a "central bank" go all the way back to the Founding Fathers.

    The European banking elite have always been determined to control our currency, and that is exactly what is happening today.

    Ever since the Federal Reserve was created, there have been members of the U.S. Congress that have been trying to warn the American people about the insidious nature of this institution.

    Just check out what the Honorable Louis McFadden, Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee had to say all the way back in the 1930s....

    "Some people think that the Federal Reserve Banks are United States Government institutions. They are private monopolies which prey upon the people of these United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers; foreign and domestic speculators and swindlers; and rich and predatory money lenders."

    The Federal Reserve is not the solution and it never has been.

    The Federal Reserve is the problem.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. jbailey

    jbailey Active Member

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    Good post. As long as the world accepts the US dollar as the world reserve currency ( oil is priced in US dollars ) we'll be OK. We just print more money. When the world reserve currency changes to the Chinese yuan we are done. Think it can't happen? The British pound sterling used to be the world reserve currency.
     
  3. pullll

    pullll Member

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    I believe you will find the Federal Reserve is exempt from paying income taxes.
     
  4. bigk

    bigk TS Member

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    What the federal reserve and these banksters are doing is stealing from the american people and most other people of the developed world. These same banksters control the money supply of most of the world and are ruthless in their methods of getting it.All major conflicts this past 100 years have been finanched by these same bankster familys,the rothchiles,rockafellas and the british royals. None of this elite group of thieves have any scruples about how they get their wealth,they believe that it is their god given right to do what they do and everyone elce be dammed.This scum financed the first and second world wars and all since,both sides.They were the only winners while millions died.Americans kicked the british out of the country only to allow them to take it over again.Only this time they have enough american politations in ther pockets that this time they will be more difficult to remove. The bottom line is that they have no allegiance to any state or country so long as they control what is going on. The old saying,,he who pays the piper calls the tune, is very approperate. JFK tried to do away with the fed and we all know what happened to him. Anyone or any country who is a threat is destroyed.
    The land of the brave and the home of the free. If only this were true. The american people have stood by and let this small band of thieves destroy all that this country once stood for. Your own neighbours are used against you to deprive you of your liberty,(for 30 pieces of silver)police ,fbi,homeland security,etc,etc,etc,who are supposed to protect and serve are now being seen as a modern form of the ss.,citizens cannot fly from new york to texas without being groped and abused by their own country men.If anyone objects they are labled a terrorist,and a black man in washington, who obviously has forgotten his history is fully behind these actions. Bush before him was exactly the same. Keep the population in constant fear and they can be controlled and made to think that this constant erosion of their libertys is for their own good.

    The british establishment have used these same tactics for hundreds of years to oppress the rest of the world and they are still doing it.Devide and conquer. Until americans once more stand on their own feet and see what is happening this will continue. Weed out the scum who would destroy your way of life before it is too late, if it is not already.Your own government appear to have sold out for their own personal interests. http://truthknowledge.com/

    k
     
  5. b12

    b12 Well-Known Member

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    Brian,
    I'm glad you explained it in detail. I new and have been trying to explain the same thing to people that just look at you like your a radical or nuts.

    Much of the federal reserve came about in the early 1900's and was hatched out on Jekyel Island. Would I be right obout the or not.

    Also durring the Clinto administration their was a law passed that said ( In case of a national economic emergency the Fed. Gov. has the right to seize all assets public and private. That means anything of value including your home and all accounts. )

    To esculate this their was a scheme By Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, and Slick Willie. Called Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae. It was designed for the banks to lend money to people with no money, even Illegals and the Fannie and Freddie will back the loans with Federal Reserve dollars.
    The only way to get out of this debt is to dump the federal reserve after an audit. Most will go to prison or be hanged when the people find out what idiots they have be made into.
    The time is very close when the people will begin to loose everything the own. Not on loan but own.
    When things start to happen manay forigen nations are ready to step in to stop the upheavel of the people and hold them at bay. All through the direction of the BILDEBEGERS.
     
  6. shelly

    shelly TS Member

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    Don't take this the wrong way bigk, but you sound like a loon.
     
  7. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    The Fed has been around a long time. The above is a good read...but there's absolutely nothing new in it. Although I'm not crazy about the arrangement, the Federal Reserve is not to blame because we're broke. That's like blaming payday loan companies because their customers are irresponsible with their money.


    The blame lies with the drunken sailors WE have been electing to Congress. THEY borrow the damn money. All the Fed does is give them another snort of punch when they (we) requested it. Until we stop electing drunken sailors to Congress and stop the madness, auditing the Fed or any other Ron Paul BS is not going to help. Nobody's ripping us off, we're doing it to ourselves. We can stop any time...if we want.


    The only thing the "Jewish Bankers" are guilty of, is understanding our stupidity better than we understand it ourselves. I think most of them are actually concerned about the plight of America. But all they can do, in their professional capacity, is to act in accordance with the law - and hope we wise up and start making different policy choices in the a-holes we elect.


    It's not the Fed's job to save us from ourselves. I know that's not going to score many points with the tin-foil hat people who hand out flyers at gun shows...but there it is. Everyone possesses the option to live within their means. Going out to the loan shark - and then getting pissed because he eventually owns your ass - is just stupid.


    We have a test coming up soon. The U.S. Congress is going to debate going back to the Fed for another snort of corn mash (ie, the vote to raise the debt ceiling). Can we push away from the table? I'm not betting on it. Yes, we do have some Tea Party folks in the House now. But my guess is, like a sorority girl trying telling a frat boy, "I won't let you plow me until you kiss me a couple times first," they will only be able to extract some "promises" from the other Congressmen before the debt ceiling bill goes through as planned.


    But hey...I could be wrong. We shall see. As of this writing, the media are reporting that Boehner is holding out like a virtuous school girl and his panties are still on. But the pool table has been cleared off, and the brothers took the hint and left the room. I'm guessing one peck on the cheek, and Betty gets plowed like a farm animal.
     
  8. H82MIS

    H82MIS TS Member

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    Don't take this the wrong way shelly,,,but educate yourself first then maybe you'll understand what he said,,,
     
  9. bigk

    bigk TS Member

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    Shelly, king of the oneliners.I may be a loon but thankfully one with his eyes wide open. Take your head out of your a.ss and think for yourself. If you cant contribute anything constructive to any discussion just please go away.Believe it or not you wont be missed.
    If the day ever comes that you have to rear a child (probably adopted,no balls of your own)and you cant provide for it then you will realise what I have said is true.
    K.
     
  10. shelly

    shelly TS Member

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    That's funny K. Remember the mantra: "It's all Bush's fault". LMAO Perhaps that small band of bankers will send a UFO down to scoop you up.

    The idea that the government doesn't control the printing of money is silly anyway. The notes, which are called "federal reserve notes" but just as easily be called "nutty notes", are printed by the Bureau of Engraving which is a government agency. The truth is that the government can print all the money it wants and could pay off the debt very quickly by doing so. The problem is that this would devalue the dollar and soon make it worthless. The "cure" would be far worse than the disease. It always boils down to the law of supply and demand.
     
  11. shelly

    shelly TS Member

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    BTW, bigK, your implication that JFK was killed because he wanted to do away with the Fed makes every bit as much sense as the other conspiracy theories that he was killed by the CIA, Castro, KGB and so many others.

    Hey, b12, what is a "BILDEBEGERS"? Is it a new type of hamburger? Jees, where do you people come up with your handles anyway?
     
  12. porky

    porky TS Member

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    Shelly, I think you have that wrong. JFK did away with the last of the US silver backed currency thereby allowing only the Federal reserve print our currency. You're ay to young to remember that. It was in the the 30's that FDR did away with the "old standard", even going so far as to making it illegal to own gold coin and gold backed paper bills. It was JFK that finally did in the US Currency by eliminating the silver backed currency, thereby letting the Fed Reserve print as much money as they desired. The public didn't care because money began to loosen up and people got more money than ever to spend. Remember the old saying, Give them what they want and with it you can control them. Look at today's economic crisis. The Gov't is printing more and more money to bail everyone out. Think of Germany after WWII and the people wheeling a wheelbarrow with money to the bakery to get a loaf of bread.(their maoney was worthless,even to them) The person left the wheelbarrow with the money outside of the bakery and someone left the money and stole the wheelbarrow. Maybe we'll have the old greenback and the new greenback like Germany had to develop. Actually, I don't think that the US is capable of the crisis the will develop.
     
  13. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Google "bildeburgers group"; you may learn something. For extra credit, find out if the last 5-6 U.S. politicians to be killed or die under strange circumstances had anything in common?
     
  14. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    We will never be debt free until we quit borrowing money from the Federal Reserve and start issuing our own treasury notes. If you ever find the time read the orginal Federal Reserve act of 1913 you will find that they are guaranteed a return of 6% on their investment. So every dollar we borrow we pay them intrest. So it is in their best intrest to keep us spending more than we take in. And remember the U.S governments only income is in the form of taxes. So we are using ours and our grandchildrens sweat and blood as collateral for these loans.

    The Fed is also responsible for 95% inflation since it's inception. Bernake keeps telling us it's good to have inflation at around 2% per annum but what he doesn't tell you is that it does not include the essentials of food and fuel in the equation. If you take these into account we are at 8% inflation.

    It is all a ponzi scheme with only one end. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. How nice would it be to create your own money out of nothing and be able to buy hard assets with it? That is exactly what the Fed is doing right now by buying MBS and Treasury bonds. They are now the largest holder of U.S debt and assets. The game Monopoly comes to mind.

    Jim
     
  15. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    As long as the Fed can print dollars, we are okay. Problem is we have China that is not real happy holding a bunch of greenbacks that look like they are going to become worthless due to the massive and regular infusion of new green backs. Add to that the oil producers that are talking about selling oil for a 'basket' of currencies which includes everything but the dollar and there is a very real possibility that the dollar may be history as a world reserve currency. If this happens the Fed will no longer be able to print money and we will no longer be able to keep writing IOUs for our massive debt obligations.

    This is why investors are trading dollars for gold or other currencies at such a high rate these days.

    The liile guy (like most of us) may do well to invest in canned food and dry storage foods as his new form of money. (or at least a short term form of money in the event that the dollar collapses)
     
  16. DelarockX

    DelarockX TS Member

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    I would really like to participate in this discussion...

    What is the question at hand?

    Kudos to Brian in Oregon for a well written post and explanation of the basics of macroeconomics.
     
  17. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    India just last week agreed to pay Iran in gold for it's oil. China is divesting it's self from Treasury notes and buying gold. China and Russia are conducting business between them in their own currency. The Fed is artificially keeping the stock market up by infusing $80 billion a month into the financial sector. The banks are making a killing borrowing at 0% interest from the Fed and investing over seas. I don't hold much hope of the dollar surviving too much longer. Since George Washington, our presidents have known the evils of the money changers but it wasn't until Wilson that they gave into them. End the Fed and the IRS and we will recover.
     
  18. bigk

    bigk TS Member

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    There is no question here just a statement of fact.America cant pay its debt,period. If you dont pay your debt what happens?.Your own personal debt is bad enough but having to pay debt accrued by faceless beurocrats is something elce altogether.The wealth of the richest country on the planet has been stolen. From the government?,no, from the ordinary hard working American people. The worst thing about it is this is happening all over the world.

    K
     
  19. JohnBT

    JohnBT TS Member

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    I've never read so much nonsense in one place before. The fact-twisters are working overtime.
     
  20. drh08

    drh08 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    302
    I agree with JohnBT things are pretty incorrect in a lot of ways in that article.
     
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