1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Issue with Spolar and 410

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Baron23, Aug 29, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    Hi folks - I have a Spolar with low three digit serial number and have very successfully loaded 20 and 28 ga on it for over a decade. Love the machine, love the support provided by the Spolar family.

    The issue I'm having is with the 410 die set I recently purchased. I'm loading Rem STS with Rem wads. My Spolar is hydro so the strokes are smooth, clean, and regular.

    The issue is at the wad insertion/shot drop station. I'm having a number of shells where the base of wad peels the side of the shell down like a banana when inserted. This is happening about 7% of the time. All hulls are once fired.

    If it was always peeling the hull in the same place (e.g. the forward facing side) I would look to the adjustment of the wad holder on its shaft (however, this same wad holder works perfectly fine with 20 and 28 ga and that indicates to me that its properly centered over the die). However, its both front and back...more front, but back side often enough.

    I am using the Hornady wad fingers that Spolar uses...they are in fine shape, not worn. However, it appears to me that a set of wad fingers that were a bit longer and with a more pointed angle would better assue that the was goes in the hull correctly. I have no idea of there is a better alternative.

    I ensure that there are no stray shot pellets anywhere in the mechanism, especially where the small guide from the wad shaft seats. It still happens.

    Please do not read this as criticism of the Spolars...I spoke briefly to them once about it but did not pursue the issue strongly. However, with a bit more experience with this 410 die I have concluded that the current performance is just not acceptable (as well as making a larger mess than normal). I will contact them again, I'm sure they will be helpful, but I just want to know if anybody else has had this problem and, if so, how did you resolve it.

    Cheers

    Stephen Meyers
     
  2. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,542
    I have a #106 and load 410. I also find that the wad station isn't centered over the hull exactly and I have to watch it. I'm manually cycling my machine so maybe going slower I'm not having to same results as you. But sounds like the same problem. I don't see a way to adjust that shaft in any direction. I'm using WIN AA HS hulls but don't see and advantage/diadvantage to help the problem. Dave T.
     
  3. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    The fixture that is attached to the wad shaft can be loosened and rotate about the shaft to adjust the position.....but as I said, it works perfectly for 20 and 20 ga, it is set at the factory (which is a good reason not to screw with it), and...if you notice closely, the wad fingers are provided with a small degree of motion which should let it self-center if the tips are properly inserted into the shell.

    Thanks for the reply, Dave.
     
  4. Flingm

    Flingm TS Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    25
    Watch the wad station as you index your loader very slowly. The wad guide fingers may be slightly longer than needed and catch the side of the hull resulting in the wad not correctly entering the hull. If this is the problem, trimming the guide finger length "slightly" may correct it. Remington hulls are a bit longer and stand higher in the dies. I don't think the manufacturers make varied length wad guides for different hull length.

    Dale
     
  5. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    I will check again, Dale....but I'm pretty sure that they clear the hull just fine.
     
  6. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,771
    Location:
    Rapid City SD
    Try a P/W 410 wad finger. They are longer and more pointed. MAybe that will help you.

    WW
     
  7. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    Hi Whiz - I was just looking at them on your site! The picture is the same one used everywhere and it was hard to tell their configuration.

    Thanks for the info...for a few bucks its worth a try. I will order one from you.

    Cheers and thanks again.
     
  8. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,417
    The problem is with the hull. Open up the crimp by rotating a cone shaped object in the end of the hull. This will open up the end of the hull a little and allow the wad to enter freely without catching on the end of the hull. HMB
     
  9. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    Hi hmb - I understand but isn't that what the primer punch/resizing station is supposed to do?
     
  10. chipking

    chipking TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,761
    What you describe is what happens when wad guide fingers go bad and no longer spread the hull mouth far enough. Note that the 410 is 1/4 inch shorter than the 20 and 28 so the wad guide must be lowered to insure that the fingers are going into the hull far enough to spread it for the wad.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  11. Dicksie

    Dicksie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    295
    Location:
    California/Utah
    Steve,
    Please call our 800-227-9667 number and have Carter, Robert of Bill help you. We don't recommend using P/W wad fingers
    Dicksie Spolar
    800-227-9667
     
  12. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    Hi guys - thanks for all of the input. 10 minutes after I got home I received a call from Carter Spolar once again proving my assertion that Spolar has as good or better customer service of any vendor from who I have ever made a purchase. You cannot beat Spolar for the machine they build or for the family that stands behind their product.

    Before I go to my conversation with Carter and issues with my machine, I remembered during this call with him of the terrible accident that befell Dixie. I just would like to remind everybody to keep her in your prayers as she continues to recover and rehabilitate. God speed to you on your path to restored health, Dixie.

    The wad fingers are almost brand new. While I am willing to try another set, I don't think that this is my issue (but it may be).

    I bought the 410 die set well after I purchased the basic machine. Therefore, the Spolars did not have the opportunity to set my 410 die set for my specific machine. It is Cater's conviction that I just need to very, very slightly better align the wad drop arm to the center of the die. I also received a call today from a good friend in VA who had the same problem and resolved it via very minor adjustment of the wad arm on the shaft.

    As we all agree, the 410 is the least forgiving of all, the throats of STS are like paper, and the slighest exceeding of tolerances and you have a mess.

    I will give Carter's advise a try. I also will consider pre-sizing the throats of the hulls prior to loading them. I should think the barrel of an ink pen may do very nicely for that.

    I'll let you know if I screw everything up (I'm dangerous with a tool in my hand LOL).

    Cheers

    Stephen Meyers
     
  13. GRUMPN

    GRUMPN TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Messages:
    49
    Because the alignment of the wad fingers is a more critical on the 410 try this. The roll pin on the wad guide nests in a machined V for alignment and due to the way its machined there is a little "play" in the alignment. The V has alarger radius than the roll pin. Clean the V area well with acitone then put a piese of lead tape in the V. This reduces the radius at the bottom of the V and refines the alignment. Also while they're more expensive and therefore painful to use:) Remington wads work the best because they're so open. Hope this works as well for you as it has for me. Ric Hart
     
  14. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    Thanks Ric. Already use Rem wads for the reason you cited.

    I will see if I can get a better alignment by adjusting the wad arm as Carter suggested. I will look closely for play in position of the wad arm do to the V for the guide.

    Cheers
     
  15. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,632
    Hi guys - just wanted to report back to you.

    First, I would like to note that my Spolar is serial number #4xx. Its an early model with a number of years on it. Also, I bought the 410 die set years after the reloader, so Spolar never had both of them in their shop at one time. Finally, as we all know, the tolerances are tightest for a 410, which rather goes to my last point about Spolar not have the reloader when setting up my 410 die set.

    Carter did call me, but then during the Skeet World I spoke with Robert on a number of occasions about my issues and he was terrifically helpful as I would expect from Spolar.

    Robert walked me through a number of items to check, and possible tighten/adjust slightly, in order to ensure that my die turntable and wad arm were moved consistently and without any slop. This helped a great deal. We talked a little bit about the very small, but nonetheless present, tolerance of the tool head key in the main shaft key way and how I can get just a tiny bit of adjustment there when tightening down the tool head. This was all to ensure that the shot drop tube was as consistently centered over the die as possible.

    With all of this done, I still need just a tiny bit adjustment of the wad arm on the wad shaft to get it perfectly centered over the die (hull) so I made an extremly small adjustment of the arm on its shaft.

    I have been loading 410's manually without a hitch. I may put the hydro back on, but to tell the truth, with the little ones manual doesn't bother me. I have more time to see what's going on and I don't load them in the volume I do for 20 and 28 gauge. I will see.

    Moral of story is that Spolar once again demonstrated the best customer service of any company with whom I have any dealings. Its a real pleasure to own an great American made product from an great American company.

    Cheers
     
  16. dux4all

    dux4all Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    77
    I wish Spolar would just make a tapered cone to allen screw to the powder drop tube to open up the throats on the 410s. Would solve this problem completely. I had the same problem initially, but managed to eventually fine tune the shot drop tube on my own. I, however, still wouldn't trust it enough to load with hydraulics.



    If you haven't dealt with Spolar before, there are a couple of things you need to know up front. I'M GOING TO SAVE FIRST TIME SPOLAR OWNERS/USERS A LOT OF GRIEF. ***Disclaimer: This list was compiled in the 9 or 10 telephone trouble shooting sessions I've had with Carter and Dixie since I bought my machine from them brand new*** My experiences may be unique, and mileage may vary. I have dealt with issues in 20, 28, and 410 gauges, all set up with my load recipes by Spolar from the factory (I load 12 gauge on a hydraulic MEC 9000HN).

    1) THEY DO NOT WANT YOU TO ADJUST ANYTHING on their machines. DO NOT tinker with, fine tune, or do any experimenting with it at all. DO NOT unbolt or disassemble the turret head assembly to clean or remove shot. You are not allowed to know any of the ins and outs of your reloader.

    2) Spolars are perfect from the factory and never need adjusting. Their machining is to such high tolerances and their quality control so perfect that any error HAS to be operator error. Their shot drop tubes NEVER bridge shot or hang up (mine was a 28 gauge). If your Spolar 410 power loads do not eject from your Briley tubes but go through your buddy's Kolars without problems, it is because your Briley tubes are defective. This is because Spolar resizes and reloads shells to exact factory specifications, while MEC reloaders smash the brass down to below factory specs. And while MEC 410 reloads will go through ANY gun without a hitch, Spolar recommends reaming out the stainless steel chambers on your full length tubes to accomodate their shortcomings.

    3) You are never allowed to change loads. That's a no no. You are going to have to shoot the load that your machine was set up for until you DIE (otherwise the die head set needs to be sent back to the "masters" to be tuned for your new load because even a mechanical engineer is not capable of such high precision endeavors on their own). You are simply not smart enough to set up a recipe on your own.

    4) You are not allowed to use any other manufacturer's parts on a Spolar, especially if it's made by P-W (even though they come from the factory with modified MEC crimp starters, Hornady wide guide fingers, and modified Hornady powder and shot bushings). DO NOT purchase any parts from these companies and machine or modify them on your own, even if you own an industrial lathe or are a machinist. And just don't EVER bring up the terms "Ponsness," "Warren," "Ponsness-Warren," or "P-W."

    5) You need to know your place in this universe. As a patron that now owns the Cadillac of shotgun shell reloaders, you need to understand that all you are is a knuckle dragging Neanderthal that is not capable of higher thought processes on such a sophisticated precision mechanical instrument. You have at least been smart enough to empty your wallet with them, and that is enough. And even if you spent over $2000 on a loader and die sets, there is someone else out there that spent over $10,000 with them, and he trumps you.

    Luckily I have finally worked the bugs out of my reloader...and as you can tell, there certainly were some. Cadillac of reloaders...YES. Cadillac of customer service...DECIDE FOR YOURSELF. I'm glad your customer service experience has been better than mine. As for me, I prefer trial and error anymore. I'd rather poke hot pokers into both my eyes a thousand times than to ever talk to Carter or Dixie on the phone again.
     
  17. Reinz

    Reinz Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    126
    Baron_- I have a Spolar 12 that I load manually. I have not used Remington wads in years. I know that this is going not going to make any sense, but it correlated with my 12 gauge Spolar doing the same thing yours is but manually and using Winchester AA grey wads; please bear with me.

    When I looked at the base of the grey Win wad it was not "continuously" round. it had 4 breaks or cuts on the edge. These breaks would allow a lip to form and stick out and even though the wad guide should feed it in the hull, one of these "lips" would catch the hull and do the banana peel.

    My solution was to go with Downrange wads. All I had at the time were The Bio XL and the bases are continuously round and fed like a champ. No banana peeling! The bases are also stiffer which helps as well.


    Your brain tells you and the crew at Spolar tell you it's the fingers and all of these adjustments - well I found- it wasn't. Just like the poster before.

    I love the Spolar crew, they are the best! But they are not in my shop looking at my machine and I have had to fiqure some other things out for myself as well.

    They are only human.


    Good Luck

    Stormy
     
  18. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,650
    Sounds like Dux4all is the type who would complain that his Cadillac doesn't stop correctly ... after HE adjusted the anti-lock brakes himself .... and then argue with the brake specialist.
     
  19. dux4all

    dux4all Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    77
    Nope. All of these problems were direct from the factory. The only adjustments I made were troubleshooting with the manual trying to fix problems I ACQUIRED FROM THE FACTORY. It was only in my multiple interactions with them that I learned they don't want you to know about the machine or fix it yourself.

    I had a 28 gauge shot drop tube that was machined incorrectly and there was a ledge that held shot and allowed it to bridge shot. Every 5th or 6th shell was undercharged, while the next one would receive the left over shot and a full charge. I can tell you Ahab that I did not take the shot tube off and tig weld in a square ledge to hold the shot so it would bridge like that. Carter had never seen that one before. Must have been machined early Monday morning.

    My 20 gauge die set was breaking off crimp starters like no tomorrow, straight from the factory. After breaking 4 of Spolar's $15 modified MEC crimp starters off in the first flat of shells I loaded WITHOUT ADJUSTING THE MACHINE, I had to raise it up because there was no adjustment left on the fine threads that allow it to spin freely. Go figure that out. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to turn the threads back to give appropriate clearance and allow the crimp starter to spin freely. I'm sure it worked fine on the 3 or 4 shells they loaded at the factory.

    My 410 shells WILL NOT eject from Briley full length tubes. The shells drop in easily, but swell in the chambers after firing and stick. I had done internet searches in the past, and I'm not alone. So now in addition to my "Cadillac" reloader I use a MEC Supersizer to resize the brass so it will eject them flawlessly. I'm sure Dixie does not recommend using anything MEC on a Spolar Power Load.

    The 20 gauge die set problem is the only one of the 3 that could even possibly be created by a user. The rest are inherent to the machining processes and their "factory perfect dimensions." I can assure you that I felt no need to adjust the factory settings for my recipe when the shells they sent that were loaded on my machine looked absolutely perfect. I expected to be able to sit down at the machine and load thousands and thousands of each gauge without a hitch. I was wrong.

    I have since nicknamed my Spolar "Christine" because according to Dixie and Carter there was a lot of "we've never seen that before" in this machine. If only it was serial #666 and made on Friday the 13th I would understand.
     
  20. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,764
    duxforall, I liked my spolar so much I gave it to my kid and went back to my 366. But in all fairness he loves it. :)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page

are spolar reloaders good for 410shells

,

spolar reloader 410 having problems