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Is this what the founders of ATA envisioned III

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by perga1, Aug 9, 2008.

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  1. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    One more time! Is there a pattern emerging here???

    EVENT # 7 - EMBRACING THE PAST SINGLES


    CHAMPION *** T I E *** 100

    RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 100

    THIRD PLACE *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS AAA WINNER *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS AAA RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS AAA 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS AA WINNER *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS AA RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS AA 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS A WINNER *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS A RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS A 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS B WINNER *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS B RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS B 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 99

    CLASS C WINNER *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS C RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 100

    CLASS C 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 99

    CLASS D WINNER KNIGHT KENT ELKTON KY 98

    CLASS D RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 97

    CLASS D 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 97

    SR. VETERAN WINNER *** T I E *** 99

    SR VETERAN RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 99

    SR VETERAN 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 99

    VETERAN WINNER *** T I E *** 100

    VETERAN RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 100

    VETERAN 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 100

    SUB JUNIOR WINNER *** T I E *** 100

    SUB JUNIOR RUNNER UP PENDING CARRYOVER

    SUB JUNIOR 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 99

    JUNIOR WINNER *** T I E *** 100

    JUNIOR RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 100

    JUNIOR 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 100

    LADY WINNER *** T I E *** 100

    LADY RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 100

    LADY 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 100

    CHAIR SHOOTER WINNER PENDING CARRYOVER

    CHAIR SHOOTER RUNNER UP PENDING CARRYOVER
     
  2. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Jerry, I may be concerned about the future of the ATA but if the delegates don't know by now that the association is dying a slow death and they won't take Phil seriously then why would I waste my time dealing with the delegate. I have been there/done that. There have been many suggestion presented here on TS.com but no one is listening. And, you are wrong, there are many people who contribute to and monitor TS.com who can do something to affect change they just choose not to bother. It requires major support to get anything changed and all I am hoping for is that many here on TS.com get the message and lobby for some change to save the association. And yes, I think repitition may send the message so expect to see more posts of results. Jim
     
  3. acre44

    acre44 Member

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    That is unreal. Those sandbaggers in C and D definitely had the "target management" skill this year.
     
  4. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    In addition to getting your plan to your own delegate. Have friends in other states get involved by doing the same for their delegate with the plan. The more state delegates/members involved the better.

    Not many state members attend their own state shoot compared to the number of state members, of those, not all vote on important changes either. That's one of the reasons it's so tough to get changes in real time through the BOD. According to what Neil Winston said here some time back, it may take years to get anything changed pertaining to rule changes. I can certainly see and understand why. Hap
     
  5. The Loud One

    The Loud One TS Member

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    Thanks for the update. Just as you would expect at the worlds largest trap shoot. The best shooters show up and shoot great scores!

    Greg
    0111981

    P.S. Can you update us on the carryovers too?
     
  6. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    FWIW and IMO, I think it's a sad state of affairs to go to the Grand, knowing that your best will not be good enough for anything. I feel for those in C/D class (singles & doubles) who shoot perfectly respectable or better scores and are out of the running because of the "abnormally" high scores of the winners. This is however, nothing new.

    Hap, I remember when Neil made that comment, what I don't get is why it takes so long to make changes if it's obvious something isn't right and truly needs changing. I have no suggestions for change, I honestly don't know what needs to be done, but something needs to change.

    Aw well, people go for the experience and there's always shopping to be done at the Grand, right?
     
  7. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    60 + 60 + W = More competitive scores.

    Curt
     
  8. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    The founders wanted a sport where everyone was a customer and every customer's wish came true.


    Don't like 3-hole targets because you can't shoot a really good score, then go to a club that will set them any way you want, the flight and angle requirements are after all just suggestions not really rules and you are the customer.


    Want to shoot at 12:30 at targets that are exactly 10 feet 2 1/2 inches tall and travel 45 yards, we will accommodate you because it is after all you're money and you should get what you pay for because you are the customer.


    I believe this is exactly what the founders had in mind when they went to the trouble of founding this association.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  9. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of carry-overs.

    CLASS D RUNNER UP *** T I E *** 97

    CLASS D 3RD PLACE *** T I E *** 97

    Could these two shooters possibly prevent another shooter or two from winning a trophy on the next event depending on their scores? They will continue shooting in the same classification till the first score is settled, no? Now, if those two shot off at the days end, both may have advanced another class?

    Curt, I like your simple method also! 60 + 60 + W = More competitive scores.

    browning4me, change is difficult by design whether intended or not. It's in our rules/by-laws how change may come about and the necessary steps to be followed to get that accomplished. Your also correct, shooting at the grand is a GRAND experience and everyone should enjoy that experience at least once in their life!

    Jerry H., there's the old ATA then the newer version? Hap
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    What scores would you expect to win each class at the Grand American ?

    Simone- Can you provide us with the shooting history of Mr. Knight to support your assertion that he was misclassified? I do know that at the Grand, all winners are reviewed by the classification committee. If there was a mistake, he would be reclassified and forfeit his class trophy. It is the shooters responsibility to make certain that he is classified correctly.

    I have, albeit rarely, seen long range handicap shooters properly classified in singles class D. Usually, these are shooters who have had some sort of physical change and refused reductions. The last person I saw with this combination had not shot any handicap for many years and had no intention of shooting handicap again.

    Your comment about the CHC getting "paid off" is way out of bounds. I know these individuals and they are above reproach.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Simone


    There are any number of legitimate reasons for a long yardage shooter to be classified in D class. Pat detailed several and he 's right about you're comment being out of bounds.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  12. SR1

    SR1 TS Member

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    Sound's like good shooting and good target's.
     
  13. balance365

    balance365 TS Member

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    Pat,

    Here is info about Mr. Knight from the ATA website. Looks to me like he is more of a 'cap shooter, never been a 16 yd hotshot, didn't shoot many 16s last year, probably not misclassified.

    2008 1000 87.30% 1000 83.10% 700 75.43%
    2007 400 84.50% 1600 86.88% 500 78.20%
    2006 1200 93.50% 2400 89.79% 100 84.00%
    2005 1000 92.20% 1300 85.38% 100 70.00%

    A D class shooter, given statistical probability, is quite capable, and in fact more likely than many want to believe, of breaking 98. If I remember correctly, somewhere in the past annuls of this form, Mr. Winston posted some very enlightening numbers concerning probability of scores. Put that in conjunction with the fact that the number of shooters at the event increase the probability that a person entered in that event, will in fact break that score, the scores seem quite plausible to me.

    Too many people keep forgetting that a shooter's average, is just that, an average. Its not his/her best score, its an average of all scores shot in the given period. It harbors the "shot in 45°, 30 mph wind, raining sideways day" and the "72°, no wind, sun at your back day", the "I'll never shoot here again, 3 hole club day" and the "we want shooters to feel good, 45 yd lollipop club day". Very few, if any, sports can claim that you just need an average day to win. By definition, winning and competition mean performing at your highest level, not at your average, especially when grouped with others who are about the same average of yourself. Or is it I missed the memo somewhere?
     
  14. balance365

    balance365 TS Member

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    Pat, forgot to add the other information about Mr. Knight. Seems like before his 10 year hiatus, he had what, to me, looks like a pretty good year in 'caps back in 1995. Probably hasn't taken any reductions that have been offered.

    1995 700 91.71% 1500 90.20% 400 88.50%
    1994 200 89.00% 200 89.00% 0 N/A
    1993 900 90.89% 1600 88.94% 200 86.50%
    1992 1200 88.83% 500 77.40% 0 N/A
     
  15. Nitro Power

    Nitro Power TS Member

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    Its singles so you are supposed to break them all to win. When you get that many folks in each class shooting at "perfect" targets, the scores are going to be near perfect. Quit worrying about everyone else and their scores and practice more to get your scores to that level.

    It is sickening that folks want to continue to handicap the shooter who works hard and breaks the great scores to the point they shoot at a lower level. This is competition and the best score is supposed to win!!!! This isn't tee ball where everyone gets a prize and we don't keep score. There is real money on the line in this game, so if you want to compete and win a trophy or some cash, practice!!! Once again - this is a one-on-all sport -- you against everyone else - and you don't win by giving half assed efforts because there are folks out there who pay their dues and work hard to shoot those scores.

    Campbell, Hawley, Marshall, Parr, Stafford, Welton, Kelly, Handy, Gens, Heller, etc. didn't get that good by whining and wishing the other all-americans would just move back or shoot lighter shells until they all shot in the low 80's. They practice and they focus on every shot -- which is actually hard work out there - just like any sport and that is what is required to win. Watch the olympics this week and see what hard work is all about and what it takes to win.

    Toughen Up!!

    NITRO
     
  16. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    I am at the Grand and shooting the best that I ever had over the past 2 years (just starting then.) While I would love to get bumped and moved up in class (that is my objective) I do find it a bit discouraging when I shoot a 90 in D Class doubles and don't even make the board. Having said that, we are shooting the number 1 trap tournament in the world and one would expect to see good scores in all classes. However once again, ya need to keep your chin up when you step to the C class singles line knowing that a 98 or 99 might tie. Perfect wetaher and it's still fun.

    John
     
  17. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Nitro, you comp;etely missed the purpose of these founders threads. With such great scores being posted by supposedly lower class shooters why would a new shooter even want to think about spending the time and money to get to that level. Perfect or near perfect scores in all classes is very discouraging to a new shooter. JRM
     
  18. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    This is where I have trouble with the 6 class arrangement. It moves a few shooters up to AAA but it pushes many into lower classes. It takes good middle B and C shooters and moves them into C and D. Are the C and D winners listed usually in a higher class because of the number of classes? My guess is probably.

    Bob
     
  19. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Good point Bob.

    It should be noted that for an 86 average, with a 6 target spread either way would mean that your scores would have to run 80 to 92. I just find it puzzling that a shooter can post a score 12 targets above his average because, theoretically, he would have to be able to post a single score 12 points below his average or several 2-6 points below his average and if he had a score 12 points below his average the computer would discard it anyway.
     
  20. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    I have read this thread along with the last three threads. You keep comlaining about something that is expected. You are forgeting to find out how many are participating in each class. When you figure that out then you will see that the scores in all classes are expected to be very high. It is called get ready for the shoot off in any class. If you expect to beat hundreds to thousands to gain a trophy shoot offs is where it is done.

    It has been mentioned earlier and deserves to be stated again. This is prelim week. I don't have the grand book with me, but correct me if I am wrong. If one wins in any class I would assume that you move up. One should also see what the shooter shot the next day and the next day in the singles to see if he just had a great round. Typically B, C, and D class have averages that have high and low scores in them. It is called consistancy and that seems to happen in A, AA, and AAA. That is a reason we have such classes. I know I have been there for many years. I could miss the first one out and run 99 and the next hundred break a 87.

    James Hammond
     
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