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Is this Model 12 SKEET 16 gauge unique?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hookedonshooting, May 17, 2013.

  1. Hookedonshooting

    Hookedonshooting TS Member

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    Ran across a gent selling this Model 12. Everything is original. Picture make it look rusty, but there is no rust, just patina. Here are the specs:

    1940 mfg date
    16 gauge
    Receiver marked SKEET
    24" WS-1 barrel with .003 constriction
    solid rib
    14" lop

    Check out the pics and let me know.

    Kept getting told someone cut the barrel. But have conformation Winchester did make any barrel length custom after the depression to sell guns. Also know someone of acclaim that has one in her safe, albeit a 12gauge.

    Local gunshops dont believe it was cut either. Taking 2 " off the std 26" barrel would make it cylinder. This has .003 constriction.

    Anyone see something like this?? Thanks for your input. Mike


    [​IMG]
     
  2. Hookedonshooting

    Hookedonshooting TS Member

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    Heres the link to the pictures, sorry

    http://s1338.photobucket.com/user/PacermanMike/library/Model%2012%20Skeet
     
  3. johnpe

    johnpe Member

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    While Winchester did make 16 gauge M12 skeet guns, they are unusual. The barrel may well have been cut. The WS-1 choke's bore narrowed by about 0.005" about 2 1/2 inches from the muzzle then flared out by about 0.020 inches at the muzzle from the bore diameter. Two inches off of the barrel would get back into the constriction.

    Johnpe
     
  4. Hookedonshooting

    Hookedonshooting TS Member

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    Hi John, from what i read the 12 gauge ws-1 did have constriction of .005. 20 gauge and 16 gauge constrictions were .003 - .004. And to be honest, if they were THAT precise in the machining process, i'd bet my house. LOL.

    Understand your comment about the way ws-1's were choked. Again on other threads I read it was all done in the last 1.5 inches of the barrel, with the very end at the muzzle being slightly more open than cylinder.

    Trying to find someone who has this barrel that can support the thought it is factory. Again, this "custom job" by the factory could be different than the specs set up for the 26" std ws-1's. Possible??
     
  5. johnpe

    johnpe Member

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    Hookedonshooting. My numbers come from the Winchester factory choke drawings dated 1963. I have two WS-1 chokes in 12 gauge, one on a M12 and the other on a M21 and both measure pretty much as stated.

    Johnpe
     
  6. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Does the surface area around muzzle look correct?

    You could also call Bed lands guns in Neb. Felix is a good authority on rare to don't exist items.
     
  7. Hookedonshooting

    Hookedonshooting TS Member

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    Pheasantmaster, I'll try him. Spoke with the owner re another topic last week.

    John,I'm blonde so forgive me. Your model 12's are .005-.006. But they are 12 gauges correct? 16 gauge and 20's came with .003-.004.

    getting a gauge reading 3" down into a std/uncut 26" barrel, should not give me a .003 should it.
     
  8. lwr_

    lwr_ Member

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    Yep, the barrel has obviously been cut. Solid ribs on the Model 12s terminated rather thin at the muzzle. The picture of the barrel end reveals that the rib is thicker at the muzzle than it would be had in not been cut.

    Also, observe the discoloring at the muzzle end. I suspect that someone had installed a polychoke at some time on this gun. Then in an attempt to make it look original and increase value someone had the polychoke cut off.

    Post some clearer pictures of the muzzle end. That should solve the mystery.
     
  9. boomer

    boomer TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Many years ago I owned a M12 16ga. Skeet gun It had a 24 inch barrel--it was DEFINITELY cut. Heck of a quail gun though!!!
     
  10. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Those 16 gauge skeet were made to shoot in the 12 gauge event for women, boys and men of smaller stature

    The barrel has been cut

    I own one with a Cutts Compensator on it

    Due to the loss of records in a fire, they dont know how many 16 gauge skeet guns were produced or sold but it wasnt a lot

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  11. lwr_

    lwr_ Member

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    Seems every firearms mfg in America claims they have had a fire that destroyed their records.
     
  12. johnpe

    johnpe Member

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    Hookedonshooting. Im assuming that you are thinking the inside of the barrel at the muzzles of my two WS-1 chokes are 0.005-0.006 inches less than the bore diameter. No, my Winchester barrels do tighten up about 2-2 1/2 inches from the muzzle by about 0.005 inches then flare outward until the end of the barrels measure about 0.020 inches larger than the bore. That is the original design of the WS-1 for both 12 and 16 gauge. In 1963 the 12 gauge WS-1 choke was changed to a straight cylinder. In 1965 both the 16 gauge and 20 gauge WS-1 chokes were changed to straight cylinders. Specifically for the 16 gauge and using the minimum bore diameter of 0.670 inches, the point of the tightest part of the inside of the barrel, some 2+ inches from the muzzle, was to measure 0.675 inches and the diameter at the muzzle end was specified to be 0.690 inches. By the way, the transition from 0.670 to 0.675 inches was cut on a 17 foot radius. I think what you are referencing is the "new" system which only measures the constriction from the bore diameter and gives it a name rather than describing choke by performance.

    Johnpe
     
  13. dustinthewind

    dustinthewind Active Member

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    I have a M12 16ga. WS1. Barrel is 25 1/4", bore is .667, 3" from end changes from to .660, at 2" starts changing to .680. SN is 735xxx. Also it is solid rib
     
  14. GR Eubanks

    GR Eubanks Active Member

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    Johnpe knows his Winchester barrels.

    Good Info...

    Roger
     
  15. eightbore

    eightbore Well-Known Member

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    Dustin, you need to learn how to measure Winchester pump gun barrels. The measurement is from the breech face to the muzzle, not just the barrel when the gun is disassembled.
     
  16. Hookedonshooting

    Hookedonshooting TS Member

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    Well I sold this gun 4 weeks ago to a fellow at my club. He sold it to a collector who traced it to the original buyer. Dale Evans. Also know as the wife of Roy Rogers. How in the hell did he find that info?
     
  17. lwr_

    lwr_ Member

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    I doubt he did. All of my Model 12s were owned by famous people before I bought them too. So the previous owners who sold them to me said. Just like every 65 and 66 Mustang that is being sold once belonged to Carrol Shelby or Lee Iacocca.
     
  18. DoubleAuto

    DoubleAuto Well-Known Member

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    Have a WS2 choked barrel for a Model 12 with a solid rib. Stu Wright said it was from the 1950's and he had seen very few of them.
     
  19. eightbore

    eightbore Well-Known Member

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    I measured two 12 gauge WS1 barrels yesterday. They had .009 and .010 of choke and were flared to about .745 at the muzzle. The bore diameters were .733 and .734.