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Is this cheating ???

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Ron Burdick, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. Ron Burdick

    Ron Burdick Active Member

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    At the Ohio State Shoot last week I was watching a squad ahead of me.

    One shooter would seem to get out of rhythm with the squad, when this happen he would give a soft call and not get a target. He would then call and clear the machine and start over.

    Is there some kind of ATA rule on this? It sure looked wrong to me.

    Ron Burdick
     
  2. Mike Hessong* (MH*)

    Mike Hessong* (MH*) Active Member

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    I believe (and I am probably wrong), it should be treated just like a broken target from the house. You are to shoot the next target. If you get a 2nd NO target than you can ask to clear the machine, but I have seen it done many times right after the 1st broken target, going against the rules. Haven't seen anyone called down about it. I won't ask to clear the machine til after getting my 2nd No bird.

    I would think that this person would be in violation of the rules, if his call was soft enough to get No target, then he should be shooting the next target with a louder call to release the bird on time.
     
  3. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    He's a cheat....
     
  4. brownk80

    brownk80 Member

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    Sounds to me like he is trying to read or time the trap. Not sure it is against the rules but if it happens more than once or twice in a 100 targets I would question it.

    Most of the voice calls have a time delay in them so you have to wait a few seconds before you can call the next target and that will vary from trap to trap but if this is the cause of the problem someone needs to explain to him how to overcome that because is really screws up the rhythm of the squad.

    JMHO.
     
  5. Border Bandit

    Border Bandit Well-Known Member

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    I'd think it's the scorer's call or the line supervisor if it's that blatant; although, I'd bet you could find/interpret a rule someplace in the rulebook...grin. I call rather softly & depending upon the trap sometimes don't get a target; but simply lower the gun, remount and call again, sometimes after moving the mic or calling a little louder. Occasionally, if there appears to be an issue with the trap or mic, clearing it is warranted, but excessively, no. It seems to me, that such behavior would annoy others on the squad. Again, there's something to be said for choosing your squad mates.

    best...mike
     
  6. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    In ATA rules you can Call to clear the trap after a single no target or broken target. In PITA rules until just this year you had to get 2 bad ones in a row before you could clear the trap. PITA changed their rule because the automatic traps frequently leave target debris on the plate after a broken target. Your case could be cheating or interfering with the harmony of the shoot but maybe circumstances are really a different reason altogether. I am quite deaf and do not always realize how loud or soft my own call is and sometimes I don't get a target because the call is too soft. In that case I will just call again without asking for a Freebie.
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Zard and Joe!! A well trained scorekeeper could have given him a lost target also! I've seen this happen many times, clearing a trap when it was his turn and supposed to be shooting that next target out!

    Hap
     
  8. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Section IV, G, 8:

    "8. During a sub-event, if a contestant is subjected to a single no target event, the contestant shall have the right to see a legal target (or legal pair of Doubles as applicable) and adjust the voice release mechanism (if present) before shooting resumes."

    As always, you're allowed to read the Rule Book.
     
  9. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    He called pull and did not get a target. The shooter then cleared the house.

    I am unclear what rule was being broken.

    What would be the justification for the scorekeeper taking a target from this individual?

    Thanks
    Shawn McNeil
     
  10. riggy

    riggy TS Member

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    It amazes me on how quiet some people call but agree that there was no rule violation here. If I was scoring, I'd push the button for him. No guarantee its going to come on time though.
     
  11. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    riggy
    If it doesn't come out on time aren't we back where we started?
    He calls to clear the house and then calls for his target?

    Shawn
     
  12. Hookedonshooting

    Hookedonshooting TS Member

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    Sounds a little like gamesmanship. Or poor etiquette on his part. Especially if the other shooters didnt have issues with the microphone. Had a similar situation with a husband and wife doing the same thing at an ata event in sw ohio last fall. I did "suggest" a solution to fix the problem that only "they" had. I was distracted as were the other 2 shooters in our squad. I spoke up because the other 2 guys were shooting well. I wasnt, so out of respect I made myself the bad guy. They both thanked me me.
     
  13. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Quack... Quack... Quack...

    Jay
     
  14. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Section IV G8. During a sub-event, if a contestant is subjected to a single no target event, the contestant shall have the right to see a legal target (or legal pair of Doubles as applicable) and adjust the voice release mechanism (if present) before shooting resumes...

    Section VII OFFICIAL SCORING
    E. NO TARGET

    The referee/scorer shall rule “NO TARGET” and allow another target(s) in the following instances:

    1. When an allowable “Failure to Fire” as described above occurs.

    2. In single target events when the target is thrown broken, regardless of the result of any shot fired.

    3. When a whole target appears on the call of the shooter along with target debris.

    4. When a contestant shoots out of turn. All contestants must shoot in regular order or sequence according to his or her position in the squad. A contestant who does not shoot in regular order is “out of turn” and the results are not scored.

    5. When two (2) contestants fire at the same target.

    6. When the trap is sprung without any call of pull, or when it is sprung at any material interval of time before or after the call of the contestant, provided the contestant does not fire. If the contestant fires, the result must be scored.

    7. When two (2) targets are thrown at the same time in single target events regardless of whether the contestant fires.

    8. When an “illegal” target is thrown, which is a target that is not within the prescribed angle or height limits for single target shooting, or what is known as a “flipper” or “freak” target is thrown, which is a target that may have slipped out of the carrier of the trap or one not properly placed on the trap, provided the contestant does not fire at it. If the contestant fires, the result must be scored.

    9. When a target whose color is markedly different from that of the others is thrown, and the contestant does not fire. If the contestant fires, the result must be scored.

    10. When firing, the contestant’s feet must be behind the firing mark at 16-yards, or behind the mark for the Handicap yardage assigned to him/her, depending upon the event being participated in. The contestant must stand with at least one foot on an imaginary line drawn through the center of the trap and continuing through the center of the post, or have one foot on each side of the line. Exceptions to the rule contained in the second sentence of this paragraph may be granted by the referee/scorer due to inequalities in the shooting platform, and shall be granted for wheelchair contestants. Wheelchair contestants shall position their chair so that the center of mass of their body is over the place where they would stand as required by this rule if no chair were used. If a contestant fails to follow this rule in its entirety, the referee/scorer shall rule any target fired at and broken a “NO TARGET,” but if fired at and missed, the referee/scorer shall rule the target “LOST.”

    Someone point out to me please, where in the above section a target that has failed to fly, is considered a "no target"... one could argue a non-target might be due to a malfunction of the trap, but in my lay interpretation of IV G6, another target would be called after the malfunction was corrected...

    If someone fails to activate the trap, that is not a "no-target" as described under VII E 1-10...

    Jay
     
  15. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    SECTION VII
    OFFICIAL SCORING


    3. The referee/scorer shall distinctly announce, “Lost” when the target is missed and “No Target” when no target is thrown or a target is thrown broken. The referee/scorer shall call the result of all targets, or only the lost targets, as directed by shoot management.
     
  16. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    V10's post of the appropriate rule seems to cover it. If I get a no target, I sometimes go ahead and call for another to shoot it since I shoot a release and it is embarrassing to shoot the sky when trying to unset it.

    But, most of the time I unset the trigger, lower the gun so I am clearly not planning to shoot a target (often open it and put it on the pad) then call "CLEAR." I always do this when there have been several broken targets or no targets have been thrown.

    I don't want to be thinking about whether I will get a target or not when I call. I want to expect to see a target appear over my gun and shoot it.

    Bob
     
  17. tammike

    tammike Member

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    There are a lot of suttle ways of cheating at an ATA event and some shooters use them. I would guess this is why we don't have a PTSA (Pro Trap Shooting Assoc.)
     
  18. Hookedonshooting

    Hookedonshooting TS Member

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    It doesnt sound like cheating based on the replies of fact from the rule book. But annoying ? Most definately. In my case both husband and wife had the speaker stand on their right side and they were both right hand shooters. So the speakers werent picking up the call because it was muffled by the stock. I suggested they move it to the left side to fix the problem. Got tired of both of them bitching about the crappy speakers that us other shooters didnt have one problem with. Ever play golf with a player that takes forever to line up a putt and then backs off when a bird farts?
     
  19. yakimaman

    yakimaman Well-Known Member

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    Gee, guess I just learned something. #3 in Jay's post. Happened to me (I'm told) in the Sunday HCP event at Cardinal. I called for a target - handful of pieces - waited a moment, remounted called again and got a fast rising straightaway (right into the wind) which I broke. Shooter after me didn't shoot and when I finally noticed it, they were looking at me. I am hearing impaired so can't hear anything the scorekeeper says - hearing aids are in my pocket and I'm wearing muffs to protect what little hearing I have left. I walked back to the scorekeeper, took the muffs off and put one hearing aid in. She tells me she saw a chip come off behind my target - I never saw anything and the target flew perfectly. She said it came off just as it cleared the house. I didn't see it and she said ok, marked it dead and I went back to the line, acknowledged the shooter to my right and said "your turn". After the round, with my aids in, I discuseed it with the squad and only two of them saw the chip - must have been debris from the previous broken target still in the machine. But, I honestly saw nothing and the target I shot at was not broken or affected in any way.
     
  20. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    How can any one call this cheating? It's nothing but a disruption that can only hurt his score. As for reading the trap, bs.
     
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