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Is this a failure to fire?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by deadelk, Apr 25, 2007.

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  1. deadelk

    deadelk Member

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    Today during a practice round I called for a target which came out like it is supposed to. I released (I thought) the trigger and the gun did not fire. What happened was, I forgot to set the release trigger. Is this a failure to fire or a lost target? Thanks, Joe Atkin
     
  2. deadelk

    deadelk Member

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    Today during a practice round I called for a target which came out like it is supposed to. I released (I thought) the trigger and the gun did not fire. What happened was, I forgot to set the release trigger. Is this a failure to fire or a lost target? Thanks, Joe Atkin
     
  3. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    Failure to Fire! You get two per and then lost bird. Jake
     
  4. three-reloaders

    three-reloaders TS Member

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    I would call it FTF Jerry
     
  5. Kingbang

    Kingbang TS Member

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    FTF NO DOUBT!


    DENNIS
     
  6. CalvinMD

    CalvinMD Well-Known Member

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    I'd give it to you as a FTF but with an asterisk notation.. * BRAINFART**
     
  7. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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  8. ke4yyd

    ke4yyd Member

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    When you make the mistake, it is a lost target. What you described is no different than failure to take the safety off.
     
  9. teleskier

    teleskier Member

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    I would have to agree, if its your error, Lost target, malfunction etc., FTF

    Mike
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It's been a rule for 15 years and still Don, Ke-, and Mike haven't read it. How long are we supposed to wait, guys?

    Neil
     
  11. teleskier

    teleskier Member

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    First off Neil, cut the sarcasm. Not all of us shoot registered targets. I shot my first time this past Sunday. So sorry if I am not intimately familiar with your rule book which I am assuming is ATA. My comment which seemed to make sense atleast to me and a couple of others that it was HIS MISTAKE. Not a malfunction. To me the rule needs to be changed. Just my 2cents... Mike
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mike, you shot your first time last Sunday; I'm guessing you mean ATA for the first time, and do not know the rules. You get it dead wrong, and now say the rule must be changed to agree with "what seem(s) to make sense to (you)," and you object to my sarcasm?

    OK, there, I've gone and done it again, haven't it?

    But less sarcastically, fully half the answers to rules questions here in TS.com are no more accurate then your own, and come from the same idea that what "seems" right to you must be right. The problem is that what seems one way to Joe seems quite the other way to Sam. That's why we have a rule book.

    As a new member, you will be sent a current (Sept 2006) rulebook and you should read it, in fact we all should. I don't know how many times I've walked onto a field where five old-timers are discussing a disputed interpretation and none of them apparently knew any rules at all.

    It's pretty simple but will have a number of surprises for you. When you go to your next shoot, discuss the questionable parts with other ATA shooter (with book in hand with your high-lighted questions) and it'll be easier to understand.

    Neil
     
  13. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Neil, another good example of "What is logic or makes sense and is not true." Shooting more than five at a post. Many, many, experienced shooters will swear that you must shoot five per post and the extras are DQ'ed but the rule book says otherwise. I like the rule, Often I can get away with shooting four at post five.... Just kidding.
     
  14. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Neil: What part of Sec. VII,C.Lost Target, #2 didn't I read?? If I don't like the target all I have to do is say I didn't set my trigger and I get a FTF, come on. Section D Failure to Fire repeatedly refers back to C#2.

    All you really have to do is give your unfired shell a dumb look put it you pocket and claim the gun didn't fire. Watch the shooter and he will pull that same shell out later and it works perfectly.

    C Lost Target #2"When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant's recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the contestant voluntarily does not fire"

    Still a Lost Target in my opinion.

    Don
     
  15. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    There are both stupid and ignorant replies here. Do you know where your reply falls? Me you ask, I read the rule book. There are others here who should do the same BEFORE they reply! Anyone familiar with the term "Rational Ignorance"? If the shoe fits wear it, if your toes feel stepped on, my apologies as I want to offend no one. Jake
     
  16. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Don -

    I think you are talking about two entirely different things . . .

    The guy who turns down a target and claims he didn't set his trigger, or claims a bad shell when it really wasn't - that's cheating and there's no rule in the book that's going to stop that. That same guy will be trying to call chips and will probably make sure he's on a squad with his buddies to make it easier. I don't believe there are a whole lot of these type of people out there, but there are some.

    The key to C#2 is the word "voluntarily". Thinking/trying to shoot and having it not happen (i.e. safety on, trigger didn't set for second shot of doubles, flinch, etc) is not a voluntary action. I shot the entire week of the SW Grand and had a couple of interesting FTF's on my squad.

    1. I was walking from post 5 to post 1 and the shooter on post 2 stepped back just as I was passing him. I had to move out of his way quickly and when I did I must have bumped the safety on my Kolar. When it was my turn I loaded, mounted, called, and even pulled but nothing happened. My FTF certainly wasn't voluntary.

    2. On the next to last day, last trap of the 200 singles. It was obvious that one of the guys on my squad who had been shooting all week was getting mentally tired. We went to the line for our last trap, it came his turn to shoot and all we heard was click. He opened the gun to find no shell. After we stopped laughing the scorer recorded a FTF and we continued. Again, this was not voluntary.

    Scott
     
  17. X Trap 2

    X Trap 2 TS Member

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    Geese....seems as the rule is not so clear after all. When I inadvertently left a safety on several years back I was given a lost. I thought it was a good call as it was my fault. Ray.......
     
  18. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    X Trap 2

    Your experience "several years back" may have been before the current FTF rule was adopted.

    The FTF rule is about as clear as it can be. The only issue is whether or not the failure was voluntary. However, as Don and Scott point out above, cheaters can cheat.
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Don:"Still a Lost Target in my opinion."

    Bob: "In my humble opinion. . . Lost!"

    What neither of you seems to understand is that there is a difference between your opinion and the rule. When it comes to rules, opinions don't count.

    Neil
     
  20. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    bob finger

    The ONLY issue is whether the failure was voluntary or not. "Shooter error" is not an issue.

    Both of Scott's examples are clearly FTF's under the current ATA rules.
     
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