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Is the Grand 200K Lewis Just Like Most Lewis?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by WoodsonEnt, Jul 8, 2011.

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  1. WoodsonEnt

    WoodsonEnt Active Member

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    Is the $200K Grand Lewis (both daily & HOA) run similar to the Lewis @ most state shoots?

    Example: 3 classes paying 50/20/20

    100 - $

    99 - $

    98 - $

    Class 2:

    90 - $

    89 - $

    88 - $

    Class 3:

    84 - $

    83 - $

    82 - $
     
  2. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Nope,

    The daily per event is a 60/40 "high gun". So, essential, only one score per class will hit. If I understand it correctly. But I hope I am incorrect!!

    The HOA will split 50/30/20 and gives us bums a chance to "wet our beaks"

    Don Verna
     
  3. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    As Don said the daily event is high gun. The lewis class at the Grand have always been 20/20/20/20/20 high-gun, so for most events only 1 score per class ever gets paid. In that respect it's not much different than the lewis at the Grand in past years, just bigger money. The HOA is percentage, so the top three scores in each class will be paid, regardless of how many shooters hit the number.

    Everyone will be able to wet their beak, even in the daily event, as they are still splitting it across five classes.

    Scott
     
  4. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Frankly, it is disingenuous to advertise a high gun split at the Grand as it sets up false expectations. 60/40, 50/30/20, 20/20/20/20/20 - what does it matter.

    Now, only two shooters need to hit the Lewis to take all the money in class. At least with the 20/20/20/20/20 payout, there was a slim hope that fewer than 5 "guns" would shoot the Lewis score and the fourth and/or fifth "gun" might get something.

    It does NOT diminish the generosity shown by the Martins to help our sport and the Grand. This is a good thread as I am sure many people do not understand the Lewis and the effect of high gun vs percentage pay out.

    Don Verna
     
  5. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    It eliminates me as frankly i'm just not good enough to take any money in "A" or even "B" class where i'm classified. I'll still be shooting, i'll just be a spectator for the Lewis money.
     
  6. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Matt and Don -

    You should take a look at lewis payouts from prior Grands (available on the rjstuart.com site). There are some events that more than one score per class was paid. And also keep in mind that the lewis class has nothing to do with your singles or doubles class (i.e. A or B). Five lewis classes are based on dividing the scores in the lewis evenly (i.e. top 20 percent, next 20 percent, next 20 percent, next 20 percent, bottom 20 percent). It all depends on where your score falls relative to all of the others that played the lewis option.

    Scott
     
  7. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    Matt, never forget "every dog has his day" :)
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    The best of the best prefer high gun pay outs. I can recall a time in past ATA shooting an option draw was the fact you didn't have to break a 25 to get at least part of your investment back. The 25s were split 60/40. That was done away with and it's now a one money option. It's no wonder the average shooter refuses to play options geared toward the top shots? Another destroyed (perception) that trapshooting once held? (When scores went up, option players went down.)

    Hap
     
  9. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Scott--I do normally play the Lewis but at the Grand the scoresseem to be so much higher across the board. Maybe i'm just confused(well i know i am). Maybe its simply not in laymens terms enough for me to grasp. I really want to be a part of it, i just question my ability to have a chance. I don't shoot doubles so that leaves me out of the HOA picture. I mean does a guy that shoots a mid 90's score have a shot?
     
  10. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    grntitan,

    You bring up an interesting point. If you don't shoot doubles, $100 + $10 for each doubles event in the HOA events is being spent on something you have no chance to win. That being said, if you hit on one or two of the 5 - 6 events you shoot you'll stand a decent chance at winning your money back (maybe).

    I think if you look back at some of the lewis payouts from past grands you'll find that 100 target 16yd events require better than 90 to hit a lewis class. I've never looked at the handicap but I'd suspect 85 - 87 typically hits the bottom class. It all depends on what caliber of shooters play it.

    If nothing else it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
     
  11. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Matt -

    Sure you do. Just keep in mind that you only have to be able to shoot better than 19 percent of all the shooters that enter the lewis in order to have a chance to win.

    Looking at champ week from last year, here are the lewis scores. Scores separated by a comma are part of the same lewis class (ie multiple scores paid in that class), the dash shows the class break.

    Singles: 200-196-193-190-184

    Singles: 200-196-193-190-185

    Handicap: 99,98-92-90-87-83

    Handicap: 99,98,97-91-89-87-83

    Handicap: 99,98-93-90-88-84

    Handicap: 100,99,98-93-90-88-85


    Scott
     
  12. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Scott,
    With a 60/40 High Gun, at a match with 100's of "players" the point is moot - or at least wishful thinking. Or am I missing something?

    I looked at the payouts for the Grand last year and it seems there is no "second" place in the Lewis, expect for event 21 where a lone 99 in HC was posted. The other Lewis "splits" had more than 2 entries (thus all monies would go to the top score in that class with the 60/40 split) - or am I not looking at this correctly?

    With the 7 "main events" (#16-#23) and 5 classes per event and a 20/20/20/20/20 split, some would conclude there are 175 "winning" scores. But there were only 40 scores that hit for a Lewis payout in 2010. With the 60/40 split it looks there would have been 36 payout scores not the 70 "possible" scores that could hit.

    If you would be kind enough to show an example I may be able to understand.

    Don Verna
     
  13. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Scott--Thanks for the better more clear explanation. It makes it more understandable and based on that i'll give it a shot. Its only money.

    Don--Thanks for the PM.
     
  14. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Don -

    I posted the scores from the singles and handicap events from last year's Grand championship week. You can see exactly what scores got paid.

    I'm not sure I fully understand the point you are making. I think you are missing that there are five classes. The 60/40 is within each class. It's not just the top score, or top two scores, that get paid. It's the top score out of each division (which with five classes means the total population is divided into five parts).

    Scott
     
  15. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    Don,

    The example scott listed shows you what you've asked for.

    The scores were the scores paid. As you can see, an it validates your claim, that most classes only paid one score. But it still went down into the mid - low 80s on the handicap events.

    I'm not sure what you point you are trying to make. I'll agree that in a "high gun" system there are fewer shooters winning money. That's the way it's designed to be.

    The rules are set, they're clear and now the shooters can decide if they want to play.
     
  16. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    Your chances of hitting a Lewis aren't much different if you shoot your best or below your average, it's a gamble not really based on performance.
     
  17. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Sorry for the confusion.

    My point is 60/40 (high gun) is just bogus for the most part - so FORGET ABOUT IT. The only time it will come into play is if there is a lone 100 or 99 in HC; or a lone 100 in doubles. THERE WILL BE NO LONE 200's in singles. But then very few of us need to worry about the top Lewis class anyway. In the "realistic" scores we will shoot that may hit the other 4 Lewis classes there will be MANY shooters who hit the score and there will be no second winning score in class. So the 60/40 is really a 100/0. Agreed?

    With High gun, there are only 4 winning scores per event not 8. If it was a percentage split, there would be 8 scores that pay out.

    In the HOA, if we again dismiss the top Lewis class, we have 4 classes left with 12 winning scores ASSURED because of the percentage split. More scores will win!

    I know I am coming across as a "loser" by dismissing the top Lewis class as an opportunity. But my chance at a perfect score is only slightly better than winning the lottery. Should I be fortunate enough to be anointed by the finger of God, hitting the Lewis is not where I wish my good fortune "wasted".

    Don Verna

    PS: If you look at the 2010 Grand Lewis payouts NONE of the last four classes had a split as there were more than 5 "guns" that hit the Lewis in each class.
     
  18. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Don--That makes sense but with all this added money, i'm not sure we can use previous years payouts as example here. I think this money may just draw a substanially larger amount of Lewis participants which will skew using the past payouts as example. Of course my opinion only. It will sure be interesting material to argue about after the fact as we view the payouts. I just hope i'm not one of them that has to say "sh!t i should have played Lewis". LOL
     
  19. milton03

    milton03 Member

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    Don,
    The 60/40 High Gun format is basically a "bone" thrown to the "big dogs". Because of the volume of shooters the only material impact will be at the top class which could result in a substantially higher payout to the winner(s).

    Last years format; 20/20/20/20/20 was a division of the total purse monies into five equitable classes (20%) with a minimum of (5) scores to each class. The class score is determined from an established lewis computation and each classes money is then allocated equally to the top (5) scores and/or ties in that class. Under this years 60/40 high gun format there will still be (5) classes (20%) however the class monies will be paid to only the top (2) scores and/or ties.

    Referencing Scott's thread above and applying this years format would not have effected any of the "Singles" payouts however in the handicap(s) the following scores would not be paid, Event 17:98(8), Event 21:97(10), Event 23:98(15), Event 25:98(12). Soley looking at Event 25 as to how the payout would be increased. Last year (20/20/20/20/20): 100(1) - $1036, 99(1)- $1036, 98(12):$259. Applying this years format (60/40): 100 (1)- $3180, 99(1)- $2072, 98(12)- 0

    The monies for the subsequent classes no doubt will trend somewhat higher however given the high multiple of scores any significant payouts are unlikely.
     
  20. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Don -

    I've only been going to the Grand since 2003 so I don't have the history that many do. But I think the lewis option at the Grand has always been high-gun. As others has pointed out it likely is done that way to increase the payouts.

    Take last year's first 200 singles event as an example. There was $13540 in the lewis pot, or $2700 per class. (677 players).

    Class 1: 200 - 20@$135

    Class 2: 196 - 51@$53

    Class 3: 193 - 41@$66

    Class 4: 190 - 27@$100

    Class 5: 184 - 14@$193

    153 shooters got paid, or just over 22 percent of the players. If it was switched to 60/40 that means that nearly half of the players would get paid, and pay-offs would be half the size.

    Class 1: 200 - 20@$81 (60% of the $2700 class purse). Payoff for the 200 drops.

    199 - 80@$13.50 (40% of the $2700 class purse). Payoff for the 199 doesn't cover the entry fee.

    My guess was 80 199's, as usually there are four times as many 199's as 200's. I think in the lower classes it would be more even, so payoffs would be a lot closer to half what was being paid for a single score.

    The point is that if you pay percentage and not high gun, at some point you are paying nearly half the field.

    I'm not saying either method is right or wrong, but at a big shoot the percentage method really tends to dilute the pot and some would say make it less worth the risk of even playing.

    Scott
     
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