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Is it time for a change?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Bernie K, Jul 7, 2007.

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  1. Bernie K

    Bernie K Member

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    At the PA Grand this year I had 3 bad loads, wad cleared bbl. This happened in the last 8 shells of my last 25, first 100 in a 200 x 200 event.
    In the club house I was talking with Ray Greb and posed the question as to why trapshooting is the only shooting sport that has this rule. ( in skeet if the wad clears the bbl or if you get a squib load you get to shoot the target over).Ray said he did not know but maybe it was time to bring this to the attention of the ATA board.
    What is your oppion on this matter?
    Squad would make determination as to shoot target over or not , any squad member can call a dead target if he or she sees it and the ref does not.
    Bad shells can be new and still have a problem I do not think it is just a reloading problem.
    They could be as a failure to fire. You would still only get two but they could be used for a wad clearing the bbl.
    thamks Bernie k
     
  2. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    Careful John LOL -- your post is starting to looking like Grammies with all those exclamations, quotes and multiple periods!! ROFL...

    We get 2 FTF's per sub event as it is. If your wad clears the barrel, how do you determine if it's a bad load by sound? I've heard those loads that go pffft or sound really hollow, usually the wad doesn't clear the barrel Sorry, I don't reload, but I am curious. I don't think I've ever heard a new load make that sound, however, I have seen them not fire (first hand experience).
     
  3. LOWGUN

    LOWGUN TS Member

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    Were you using factory or reloads? If it was factory I could see the possibility but not with reloads. Mike JMHO
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Bernie, what's a bad load? An odd sounding one? How far does the wad have to go? Six feet? Sixty feet?

    How 'bout this: to keep the general symmetry of risk and benefit the rules strive for:

    "A bad-sounding load must be shot over, regardless of the outcome of the shot."

    That sound fair to me but, of course, it will never pass.

    Neil

    PS I only shot a few registered skeet events and they were mostly on cold weather. There was wholesale cheating on the "bad shell" rule all the time and I quit

    Neil
     
  5. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    Bern, if there was an award for bad ideas, you would be the winner.
     
  6. Bernie K

    Bernie K Member

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    I guess this is the resason that I stopped comming to this site as much as I used to. All I have talked to have an issue with this rule. I'am really glad that all your shells go bang. I have been shooting for 17 years just got my 50,000 16 yd. pin, that's just registered targets add another 75,000 to that in practice. I do realize this is a fun site but sometimes I think some of you have been making your own shot and are breathing to much of the lead fumes.
    Buy better ammo??????
    At the 100 Grand American I bought Remington STS's, I had 4 boxes of junk each box I opened had 3 to 5 shells that did not fire or were empty of any shot. I took the shells back to the Remington booth and made out a form with there rep.
    This was witnessed by I shooter by the name of Chris Vendel ring any bells?
    I did not hear a word from Remington for over 6 months, so I sent a letter to the main office. Answer by Remington " Sorry here is a check for $3.89. I still have the check. Don't tell me about NEW ammo.
    Burn e K
     
  7. Bob Schultz

    Bob Schultz Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Bernie,

    The 2 FTF rule is a gift. I personally would like a "no-balk" rule. If you call and a whole target comes out its yours ... bad shell, no fire, fly on the rib, flinch, to low, to high, to hard ... don't care, if you don't break it for any reason, its lost.

    It's called "rub-of-the-green" in golf. If your ball lands in a divot or the sand you play it where it sits.

    If you call for a bird at a pigeon shoot and you don't kill the bird in the ring for any reason ... its lost.

    I don't believe we need any more excuses for miss. Lifes a bitch, then you die.

    Bob Schultz
     
  8. kiwiG

    kiwiG Member

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    Attn Bob Schultz, That's got to be about the most cold hearted,no nonsense, bloody minded, politically incorrect piece of COMMON SENSE I have read in a while. When the boys from Canterbury Traps and CVR get around to gifting you a trip to New Zealand I'd like to buy you a beer. Cheers-Graham.
     
  9. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Anyone that thinks AA and STS do not have dud loads have not shot much lately. I see more duds with factory fodder than reloads. Today, we tossed around a new AA hull that failed to fire in three guns, and was struck 8 times. One of the guns was an 1100. These guns have a tremendous firing pin strike. It generated three very loud CLICKS.

    I have seen numerous AA duds that failed to clear the bore. I am not slamming AA loads, but when the wad in a premium factory load does not make it to the trap house from the 16 yard line, it may be time to come up with a sensible fix. Also, in Skeet, if you do not pull the trigger, the target is lost.
     
  10. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    THe rule seems OK to me as is. As others pointed out, who would determine if your load "sounded weak"? Too much room for question in my book. As the rule stands now, if all components clear the barrel(lost bird), wheter you use reloads or factory shells. I do know that factory ammo does not seem to be the quality it once was (I have seen more "bloopers" with factories in the last 5 years than I have total in the last 35) but I still don't think we need any change in the rules. Let's leave those worms in the can.
     
  11. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    I agree with Bob....

    Too many excuses already.

    Curt - Delaware
     
  12. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    At one time faulty factory shells were a rare occurence and reloads were usually at fault. I think we're seeing the trend reverse as the factories are producing more junk than ever. Just think, if the prices of cheapo shells hit $50 a case as expected, so goes the argument for only using higher cost premium ammo.

    Maybe Bernies on to something- hmm!!
     
  13. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    If the ATA would develope an excuse for all of the missed targets the shootoffs would go on for ever and there would never be a clear cut winner ... The rules as written are pretty clear and favor no one in particular, that being there is no need for a change that could only make things even more confusing and controversial over time ... If I was the original poster, I would change guns, change ammo, change componants, or quit shooting all together ... Sometimes your the bug and sometimes your the windshield, this time you were the bug and were not supposed to win, and then the trap God's rested ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  14. snglfoot

    snglfoot Member

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    The other day there was a man shooting FACTORY Feochii (sp)and in one box he had one "fizzle" and one cought fire in the chamber. never saw this happen before. It burned up in the chamber (well nearly completely). Any one ever have this happen to them?
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The current ATA rules do give much benefit of doubt to the shooters. I do not have a problem with helping shooters as much as possible. As far as bad shells, they do pop up now and then with reloads and factory ammunition. I do not have any idea how to define a "squib load" better than our current definition.

    And, I frequently agree with my friend Bob Schultz, but I do not agree with him on this issue. Bob- see you in about two weeks at the Zone.

    Pat Ireland
     
  16. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    Bob's way is the way it used to be years ago. I was at the Grand as a kid, shooting a k-32 from Elmers fine guns, the barrel selector was pretty sloppy and changed between shots. I put the shell in the barrel I was shooting, pull, click, nothing. Puller comes over, has me open gun, looks at shell with no dent, lost target. Yes boys and girls, that is the way it used to be at the Grand, they actually came over and you could not open your gun till they were right there with you. I was shooting better than I had ever shot before and that ended up being my only lost target for the event. Of course there were a bunch of hundreds and I suspect that Leo hit one of them.

    I never did recover after that lost target, turned into an alcoholic, lost my job of tent guarding, actually ended up living in a refrigerator box for the rest of the year.

    But I'm back now and all's well.

    John
     
  17. skrap

    skrap Member

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    In skeet, an ammo malfunction due to "weak report" is up to the judgement of the referee. And in skeet the referee is the "sole judge" and is NOT overidden by members of the squad.

    As a certified referee, I discuss my interpretation of the ruling with the chief referee prior to starting the shoot to determine whether we are consistent or I will rule per his instruction. My interpretation is this: If, on a weak report, I can visibly see the shot stream, and determine that it would not make it to the flight path of the target, I will rule an ammo malfunction. Each shooter is allowed 2 ammo malfunctions per round of 25, at that point they can either continue using NEW ammo or continue at the risk of lost targets for each ammo malfunction thereafter. If on a weak report I cannot see the shot stream; if the target is broken it is scored as such and if it is missed, it is scored as a lost target.

    Where I have a problem with scoring a 'weak report' ammo malfunction and allow a repeat shot (for a missed target and I cannot see the shot stream) is when the shooter breaks a target on a weak report shot and is NOT required to shoot it over.

    I agree that bloopers can be found in new ammo. But, if we could see the statistics of bloopers in new ammo versus bloopers in reloads, there would be no comparison. Bottomline, if you are shooting where the score counts do everything you can to insure success, use new ammo.

    Earlier this week I shot at Mason in the Michigan State Shoot, that is truly a great place to shoot. Refereeing in skeet helps to support my trap addiction.

    Skrap

    Steve Ponscheck
     
  18. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    Skrap, what are the statistics of bloopers in new ammo vs. reloads and where did this information come from? From my 30 years experience shooting both new ammo and my reloads, the instances of bloopers is very low in both. I don't have exact figures, but I've only had a half dozen of so bloopers ever.
     
  19. skrap

    skrap Member

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    Anonymous

    I do not believe there are such statistics, I said "if". The point that I was trying to make is do you want to depend on the manufacturer that produces ammo by the millions at their quality standards or the average basement loader producing a few thousand per year?

    You are probably like myself in that you are very attentive and conscious about your reloading process. But I and I'm sure you, know of individuals that are not as mindful and are prone to more defects. I actually prefer my own reloads, especially 410 and 28ga. Depending on the shoot, I will use my own trap reloads and like you experience no failures.

    In shooting both games, I would say that most of the bloopers that I have witnessed occur in the smaller gages. Do you load the sub gages?

    Skrap
     
  20. claybrdr

    claybrdr Well-Known Member

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    Sporting Clays also has the wad clearing the barrel rule so Trap is not the only discipline as stated in the original post.
     
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