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Is Flinching a failure to fire?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by mixer, Jul 14, 2007.

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  1. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    It's a failure to fire and you get 2 per 25 sub event. It becomes a lost target on the 3rd FTF in a sub event.



    Eric
     
  2. Flench

    Flench TS Member

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    With the controversy over the scorekeeper in the Nevada thread. Can you imagine what they would have said if she had marked down a zero for a target rather than a FTF if one had occured. All the Holiest of indivduals on TS.com would have had her staked to an Ant Hill. For that matter any kid thats a scorekeeper would have a problem.

    It's great to have rules right up until they apply to you and you don't agree.

    Yes a Flinch is a FTF as well as a Gun Malfunction.

    Doyal Kirby
     
  3. buzzgun

    buzzgun Member

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    Dave,

    In keeping with the politically-correct, welfare-minded "fairness" trend in American society, trapshooters apparently no longer feel they should be penalized for their physiological shortcomings as a shooter.

    So, a rule that was once intended to give relief for _mechanical_ equipment disruptions beyond the purview of the shooter's physiological shooting capability, has now been twisted around in such a way to provide 8 free "do overs" per hundred to every shooter, provided they are savvy enough to know the word "flinch."

    So, make sure to remember the magic word: "flinch." It's the new "get-out-of-jail-free" word in trapshooting.

    And they say skeet shooters are woosies.

    (Warning: this post will be followed by at least 2 more from old woosies claiming, "my flinch is involuntary, therefore it's beyond my control"...followed by at least 1 post from an "administrative" woosie, claiming "It's too difficult to enforce, the old way...")
     
  4. zinger

    zinger Member

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    but "technically", aren't you getting a legal target but voluntarily not shooting it?..which, would be a lost target..no? FTF's should be for mechanical failures but unfortunately, are used for mulligan's. JMO
     
  5. FarmerD

    FarmerD TS Member

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    I don't know how you keep from firring when you have a flinch. When I shot pull triggers I always shot just not where and when I wished. Thank God for release triggers, as I would be in a world of hurt with out them. Richard
     
  6. buzzgun

    buzzgun Member

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    That's right...the big, Hard-Assed trapshooters have a "built in Mulligan rule."

    Whatta buncha *ussies.
     
  7. Release Trigger

    Release Trigger Member

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    BLKLAB,

    Ahmen to that brother, Ahmen to that.

    And no it should definately be LOST target.


    Respectfully,

    "Release Trigger"
     
  8. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Im new to trap, but anything shy of click and no bang should be lost. Becouse my reaction time was slow i hit the wall, please start the race over. Heres a debate thats been going on......shooter calls pull, target falls to the ground with out a trigger pull. Says a bug landed on the barrel. Is this lost or FTF?
     
  9. bas

    bas Member

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    Well, as someone has already stated, you are allowed 2 FTF's per sub-event - regardless of the number of targets....and, there is always the other alternative...zero tolerance. No FTF's for ANY reason. That would certainly cut to the chase. The deal with the flinching is; how is the scorer supposed to know if it is a flinch or a dented primer that didn't go off - without, getting off the bench, coming over to inspect the gun and in the old days...you had to pull the trigger to PROVE the shell was bad....so, I assume, they included "flinching" as a part of the FTF most probably for safety reasons. And, how can you prove it was a flinch? i.e., I could flinch...stop, open the gun, take out the shell - put in another shell - and shoot again. That was IF I flinched!
     
  10. ajc

    ajc Member

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    Any time a target is thrown in singles or handicap, the result can only be:

    1. a legal target shot at and broken: DEAD BIRD
    2. a legal target shot at and missed: LOST BIRD
    3. an illegal target (no bird, out of bounds, broken) regardless of subsequent action: DO OVER
    4. a legal target not fired at, missfire, or shot at but wad remains in barrel: FTF (by rule, 2 per subevent)

    ajc
     
  11. buzzgun

    buzzgun Member

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    ajc:

    Regarding your item #3:

    What happens if the target appears out of bounds, but you shoot at it and break it anyway?
     
  12. X Trap 2

    X Trap 2 TS Member

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    I think our club has it posted that a flinch is a lost target. I will have to go and check. Ray.......
     
  13. k3uro

    k3uro Member

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    Any target, except for a broken target, is scored when shot at. The result is scored no matter the flight of the target.

    Take care,

    Jim
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    X Trp 2- Your club may have a posted rule stating that a flinch is a lost target: however, the ATA rules would supersede that, or any other club rule that may be posted.

    It would be quite difficult for our frequently inexperienced scorers to distinguish the difference between a shooter not shooting due to a flinch as opposed to not shooting due to a mechanical problem.

    Most, but certainly not all, flinching takes place as the shooter pulls the trigger and the gun fires. This is not a F to F and is most frequently a lost bird.

    I see nothing wrong with rules that are intended to help us achieve our best scores and discount actions, such as broken guns, bad shells and flinching. We have no voluntary control over these incidences.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    This has been hashed out here many times(and will go on and on I guess). but the fact remains a flinch under the (CURRENT) ATA rules is a FTF. I have checked with both Delegates and members of the EC on this and they have all told me it is that way under CURRENT rules. The point here I guess, is nobody flinches intentionally, therefor the target is NOT intentionaly not fired at because of the shooters flinch. I am not saying I agree with all ATA rules, but just because I do not agree with them does not mean I do not have to abide by them. As far a gun club "Posting" this or that rule, if the club is throwing ATA targets, they must abide by ATA rules! If they do not, they could very well find they may be prohibitied from holding sactioned ATA shoots. Rememember a club is authorized to hold shoots by the governing organization(not the club officers or membership). You get to hold a registered shoot if the organization(ATA,NSSA,NSCA etc.) says you do and if they don't authorize the shoot it cannot be held at that club. I once saw a club try defy that only to find the scores were NOT accepted by the ATA and there were a lot of mad people. Most clubs post a statement somewhere in their program that the shoot is authorized by the ATA and ATA rules apply during that shoot. I agree a (no balk) rule that says (if a legal target is thrown and the gun doesn't go bang it's lost), WOULD be vey simple to define, but that probably will never happen. As it is now the FTF is for just about whatever reason, you get only 2 and after that all remaining targets are lost if your gun doesn't fire. PAT put it just about as plain and simple terms as possible.
     
  16. ljunatic

    ljunatic Member

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    I have never figured out a way to not fire when I flinch, So I have to just try and reaquire the dropping target and break it. Works some times and not others.

    It has always been my own opinion that my flinches DO NOT constitute a failure to fire, and I have always tried to break the target despite the flinch and the disrupted timing. It would be a conscious choice on my part to not fire in the midst of a flinch in most cases

    If the rules allow for this, I may have to rethink my approach and just lower my gun when a flinch happens.
     
  17. buzzgun

    buzzgun Member

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    Missing the target is "unintentional," too, since you "intended" to hit it.


    Should we give a mulligan for that?


    That would make the little scorer girl's job even easier - since the avoidance of providing training and having clueless child labor seems to be what we're after here.
     
  18. jakearoo

    jakearoo Active Member

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    You know, I haven't shot registered in quite a while. I have been shooting mostly other clay sports. But, hot damn, I may have to go back. So, if I understand it, not only do we have 2 hole soft targets thrown about 48 yards, but we get to turn down 8 targets per 100 bird event for free? When that nasty angle just beats you, all you have to do is put down the gun, say "hmmm - failure to fire" (or somesuch), reshoulder and call for an easier bird?

    Ya gotta love it.

    No wonder they put in a AAA rating.

    Jake
     
  19. acre44

    acre44 Member

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    I agree with you guys on this one. I have shot over 2000 targets this target year already and I am shocked at the number of times this happened in the squads I was in. The shooter calls for the bird and never even attempted to pull the trigger. Some shooters just called for another bird right away, never even put the gun down. This rule needs to be eliminated. If you don't pull the trigger. LOST, PERIOD!

    Todd.
     
  20. jakearoo

    jakearoo Active Member

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    Well, we all love Pat and he says rules that allow for the best scores are good rules.
     
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