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Ironic isn't it>

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by pyrdek, Aug 21, 2009.

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  1. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    Ironic isn

    Do you find it as ironic as I do that the recent "Cash for Clunkers" forced on us by the Democrats, is the best possible example of what the Republicans have been saying BUT NOT DOING, and what the Libertarians have always held as a core belief.

    Just think, giving car buyers extra money resulted in a tremendous boost in the economy of auto dealers and manufacturers. Just goes to show what a bit of extra money will let consumers do.

    Now the Libertarians have always pushed the idea of lower taxes putting more money into people hands to spend as they want. The Republicans have said the same thing while acting to increase governmet spending (paid for by taxes or deficits of course) and the Democrats have always just said and acted on their beliefs to have the taxes go higher and higher to support more government programs.

    Ironic isn't it that the Democrats latest actions have shown the the Libertarians have the most correct way to give our economy a big boost! I wonder weill the Democrats and/or Republicans now push a 10% or more tax cut, across the board, for ALL taxpayers??? (Nah, I don't think so either!)
     
  2. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    Just what would the republican use to push with? They haven't been in control of Congress for the last three years, 44 of the last 50 years, and when the were "in control" they didn't have enough of a majority to do anything. When they did, horndog Clinton was there to veto it unless he could say it was his idea.

    Kinda puts the Libertarians situation in perspective.

    Also makes me wonder why we all aren't doing the goose step on the way down to the quarry to make something for the moonbat lib socialists to use to decorate their homes.
     
  3. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    Cash for Clunkers hasn't done anything except put dealerships in a finical crunch!!

    Kept sound cars out of the reach of the Poor!

    Has cause used cars prices to go up!

    GET the government out of the FREE Enterprize system!
     
  4. Rum River

    Rum River TS Member

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    One more thing to remember, the government has actually paid the dealerships only a tiny percentage of all the 'clunker' deals made. Pretty tough to comment on a tremendous boost to dealers and manufacturers when over 75% of the payments due them by the government have yet to show up. The deadline is Monday night, but many dealerships have already stopped making 'clunker' deals, and more of them plan on cutting it off before the deadline. Some dealers who are waiting for the government payments before 'clunkerizing' the cars involved have run out of room and are having to pay for storage.

    Yeah, great program all right........

    Dan
     
  5. bigdogtx

    bigdogtx Well-Known Member

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    and people want them to run our healthcare system....
     
  6. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    How in the hell anyone could equate a taxpayer ripoff destructive government program with Libertarian principles is totally beyond me.

    Someone needs another pull on the hash pipe, and more study.

    Hey, Goober, the government money is going to come out of your pocket. That sound like lower taxes to you? Do you have your "HONK IF I'M MAKING YOUR CAR PAYMENT" bumper sticker yet?

    sheesh.

    HM
     
  7. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Yeah, I agree...if this is what people think "Libertarianism" is, no wonder they can't get elected.


    Playing god with the economy and bribing you with your own tax money isn't very Libertarian.
     
  8. oldgahchamp

    oldgahchamp Active Member

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    I heard on the radio that Obama announced that the Federal deficit was going to be 9 TRILLION dollars instead of 7.3 trillion. That a-Hole has no clue about money and doesn't care. The new car dealers are going to be in deep shit starting next week when the cash for clunkers money is gone and nobody shows up to buy a new ride. Larry
     
  9. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    "Now the Libertarians have always pushed the idea of lower taxes putting more money into people hands to spend as they want." (Original posting)


    Amazing isn't it how, when you hear an idea that doesn't support "your team" some people will take anything they can out of context, and try to twist it into just the opposite of what they know it means.

    One comment said:
    "Yeah, I agree...if this is what people think "Libertarianism" is, no wonder they can't get elected. "

    I guess you don't like the idea of having the government TAKE less of your money leaving you to spend it as YOU want. The view expressed, to simplify it since it seems to difficult for some here to figure out is, You don't need to have the IRS (government) take money away from you. Then they, the IRS give it to Congress (government) who uses it to buy Government control of two major players in the auto industry (quasi-government) and then take more of your money to give it to a newly created different agency/program (government again) to make dealers jump through government mandated hoops enough so that no dealers can easily get the money they are now owed (because of a failure of government to pay its bills) causing those same quasi-government auto manufacturers to have to give loans to the dealers so they don't go bankrupt. Now contrast that with the Libertarian view that LEAVE the money in the hands that made it. This money will be SPENT as those making it want. That could buy a car, either NEW OR USED, or a home or a TV or whatever THEY want. You may notice that NOWHERE was money taken by government or paid to any government agency, especially those that took their cut off the top and then, maybe, give it to someone. Translation, KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF THE POCKETS OF TAXPAYERS!

    The only thing that this clunker program showed was that people will spend money if it is available to them. Think of how much more could have been spent IF the government had NOT taken it away in the first place! But don't worry. The government will be getting about 30% or so back I bet. Why you ask? A little thing called a IRS Form 1099 showing income of $3500 or $4500 dollars. That, I bet will be considered taxable and thus, the clunker sellers will be on the hook for abound $1200 to $1500 (along with the car payments they picked up) come April 15. I also wonder what those buyers, who couldn't afford the car payment in the first place, will do when the payments still keep coming but there still isn't a job. The real deals in car savings will come in about 12 to 18 months when these year old cars are repossessed. (Kind of sounds like the mortgage problems that started this whole mess now doesn't it?)

    Another comment:
    "How in the hell anyone could equate a taxpayer ripoff destructive government program with Libertarian principles is totally beyond me. " Where did it say that taking taxpayer money was what the Libertarian view is? It did say take LESS of your money LEAVING more for you to spend AS YOU LIKE.

    Another comment:
    "Just what would the republican use to push with? They haven't been in control of Congress for the last three years, 44 of the last 50 years, and when the were "in control" they didn't have enough of a majority to do anything. When they did, horndog Clinton was there to veto it unless he could say it was his idea. " Here is a bit of info for you.

    "The Republican Party once campaigned against irresponsible federal spending and government red ink. Then George W. Bush became president. With a Republican Congress, he turned a budget surplus into a half trillion dollar deficit, added trillions of dollars in unfunded liabilities with creation of the Medicare drug benefit, and expanded virtually every federal program, domestic as well as foreign."F

    Funny, I seem to recall a couple of Bush names being president along with a Reagan, a Nixon and a Ford. Seems to me that they were all REPUBLICANs who happened to hold an office that has something called a VETO. This veto could strike down what the Congress, regardless of who was in control of it, wanted unless Congress could muster enough votes to override the VETO. Can you tell me how many times Congress actually DID override a veto, or for that matter how many times the VETO was actually used by a REPUBLICAN president? I don't seem to recall hearing about it happening much.

    Now lets hear the next twisting to support "your team".
     
  10. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    Did someone say that the Republicans couldn't do anything to reduce the debt? Lets see who actually did the most to grow the debt.


    The debt quadrupled during the Reagan and Bush presidencies, declined slightly during the Clinton presidency, and more recently the debt doubled during the George W. Bush presidency, and is projected to double again under the Obama presidency to a level numerically equal to GDP.
    Debt (in Billions % of GDP
    1970 380.9 37.6
    1980 909.0 33.3
    1990 3,206.3 55.9
    2000 5,628.7 58.0
    2001 5,769.9 57.4
    2002 6,198.4 59.7
    2003 6,760.0 62.5
    2004 7,354.7 64.0
    2005 7,905.3 64.6
    2006 8,451.4 64.9
    2007 8,950.7 65.5
    2008 9,985.8 70.2

    Contrast that to who was President since 1960
    John F. Kennedy (1961-1963) D
    Lyndon B. Johnson (1963-1969) D
    Richard Nixon (1969-1974) R
    Gerald Ford (1974-1977) R
    Jimmy Carter (1977-1981) D
    Ronald Reagan (1981-1989) R
    George Bush (1989-1993) R
    Bill Clinton (1993-2001) D
    George W. Bush (2001-2009) R
    Barack Obama (2009-present) D

    You may also want to take a look at the graph.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Welfare takes the money from everyone, and redistributes it into the hands of a few.

    Cash for Clunkers takes the money from everyone, and redistributes it into the hands of a few. (I have to wonder what portion of the people using this program even pay much in taxes to begin with - can you say, "Repo Bubble?").

    It's welfare in sheet metal form. Nobody above the level of High School civics class should have any trouble comprehending that. And when Obammy sprinkled the bread crumbs into the pond - just look how the Carp materialized from everywhere to come gobble them up!

    Anybody who thinks this program in any way favorably demonstrates the principles of Libertarianism to the wider population, needs to have their head examined.

    Unfortunately, many people will not make the connection that it was _their_ money to begin with. 99% of Joe Sixpack America will just see this as AN EXAMPLE OF A SUCCESSFUL GOVERNMENT PROGRAM, and conclude, "This is the type of thing the Government should do more of!"



    PS - Pyrdek, if you've appointed yourself Cheerleader for Libertarianism, and you think offering examples of popular Government redistribution programs is the way to promote it - you've taken careful aim and shot yourself in the foot. Some of us would like to see them actually _get_ elected, and all you're doing is f'ing it up for everyone with examples like this.
     
  12. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    I have 3 questions for pyrdek:

    1. How many times have you voted for a Libertarian candidate?

    2. Have you ever looked at the Libertarian party website, or read any of their materials, including the party platform?

    3. Just how old are you, anyway?

    HM
     
  13. Fathawk

    Fathawk TS Member

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    Hey buzz-gun, check your reading, Pyrdek is not in support of Dem views or the Clunker program.


    Pyrdek, your making sense and soon these guys will resort to insulting your age, crap slinging and name calling.

    Wait it already started.
     
  14. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    Half-Mile,

    I will be happy to answer your questions. Will you please reciprocate and answer mine in return.

    1. How many times have you voted for a Libertarian candidate?

    Several, Almost every time one has been offered on the slate. I have also circulated nomination petitions for some Libertarian Candidates.

    2. Have you ever looked at the Libertarian party website, or read any of their materials, including the party platform?

    Since I am a Western Crawford County Chairman for the Libertarian Party, yes, I have looked at both state and national websites for the party. (Incidentally, the PA state site could use some work. It should have a lot more state level information than it has.) I am a realist and am willing to admit when an organization, be it political or other, has problem areas. Ignoring the problem areas does not make them go away. Realizing they exist and then working to resolve them is a better way to go.

    I have also spoken to State and Federal Legislators, both D & R, and even had one (R) come to me and apologize for his reaction to my questions after he had publicly insulted my question (kind of like some people here) once he actually took time to look at the facts presented.

    I have also been a public speaker, tying in the fact that many of the gun control laws are based on using tax laws to punish or eliminate gun ownership. Hint, Take a look at NFA 1934. You will find it is a tax law.

    3. Just how old are you, anyway?
    If you want to do the math, count up from 1947 when I born, to today.

    If you were "educated" in one of the public schools that stress things other than education, let me help, it is 62. Over the years, I started as a D, but then Johnson came along with the great welfare state and the D's left me. Next the R's marched in saying what they wanted to do. When they left me by failing to actually do the things they said, (Think Contract with America and limits on spending) well they marched off to a different drum. Currently the Libertarians are the closest, but maybe not an exact match, to where I stand.

    Now would you please answer my questions:
    1. How many candidates and of what parties, have you worked to help elect or at least try to be elected to public office? And what were their positions?

    2. Have you ever publicly talked and questioned any elected officials? If so, on what topics?

    3. Why do you try to demean and try to insult (hint; It didn't work) those who may try to at least offer some thoughts that you don't agree with? Do you ever try to become involved in constructive debate based on well researched and documented facts and not just opinions?

    4. When did you first register to vote and in what party? Are you still a member of that party?

    Fathawk,

    Be kind to Buzz Gun. He may, and I do not know that for a fact, be a product of one of the public education schools where reading comprehension and vocabulary is not done much. This is NOT all public education but it is far too frequently the case. An educated citizenry would be to hard to control. We can only try to help educate those who were unfortunately, forced to attend such schools.
     
  15. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    If offering Government redistribution programs as illustrative anecdotes of how Libertarian policies can "work" is any example of the sort of contribution the Libertarian Party of PA is receiving from Pyrdek, I think it's safe to say we won't be seeing any tsunami of Libertarian influence emanating from there.


    But there is a bright side...it appears your reasoning has attracted the admiration of Fathawk, one of the site's resident Liberals. You two should fit together like peas in a pod.
     
  16. Milkbone

    Milkbone TS Member

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    Pyrdek, you sure expend a lot of words to say nothing. Are you related to Bob?
     
  17. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    B-G,
    I see you are using Vladamir Lenin's ideas.

    From Lenin: "It is, of course, much easier to shout, abuse, and howl than to attempt to relate, to explain."

    and "A lie told often enough becomes the truth."

    There was also a quote, but unfortunately I can't recall who said it, that said when you can not defend your position, accuse your enemy of what you yourself are doing.

    Since you want to continue to repeat statements that you know, and others have pointed out to you, that are wrong, you seem to have forgotten Goebbels staments on propaganda. One of his principles stated it is counter productive to repeat propaganda after it has been proven to be wrong.

    and to Half-mile,

    Won't you please reply so we can continue our discussion on our personal political histories.
     
  18. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    Half-mile,

    Where are you? I honestly answered your questions. Won't you please extend the courtesy of answering mine. I really would like to get some feeling about how you come to your political position.
     
  19. Fathawk

    Fathawk TS Member

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    "But there is a bright side...it appears your reasoning has attracted the admiration of Fathawk, one of the site's resident Liberals. You two should fit together like peas in a pod."

    Wow buzz-gun, A post referencing me that almost wasn't insulting. Your gettin' there tiger!
     
  20. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Fattie,

    We like to reward good behavior here...so as long as you're warming up to Libertarians, there's hope for you (just don't let your union boss find out you're doing it).
     
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