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International trap scores increase with 7/8oz?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr A C Jones, Mar 23, 2009.

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  1. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    I looked through the historical scores for the Olympics (back to 1908) and I could not see any proof that reduced payloads increased the scores. Same thing for the World Championships.

    So, can anybody produce some evidence to support the claims that the reduced payloads lead to higher scores?

    Andrew.
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    I believe there was a score in a World Cup match once that was a little higher, but don't quote me on that. HMB
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to ask a couple more questions if I can horn in on your thread a bit, Andrew.

    We've both heard that scores increased, but never more detail than that. Did the winning scores increase, or the median score or what? Of course, if the winning score increased and the median score stayed the same or dropped, then the argument that lighter loads would increase the competitiveness of average shooters has it backwards.

    And even if "they" (winning, median, or both) increased, is it attributable to the change in shot weight? For example, winning and tying doubles scores in the ATA have gone way, way up in just the 25 years I've been shooting and the shot-weight has not been changed. What would have happened to scores if the shot had not been lightened - and how are we to know?

    Neil
     
  4. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    UIT has that information, and all of the governing bodies have access. My son was shooting international skeet during that time, and I remember seeing a copy at the Army Marksmanship Unit at Benning.

    IIRC, the year of 24gm mandate, the scores for finals in Grand Prix and World Cup matches were off ¼ bird, then as people learned to shoot 24gm - AND THE BULLETS GOT BETTER - the scores reclaimed the ¼ rock, and increased a bit.

    Again, working from memory, the 'competitive' shooters gained a fraction, but the delta between mean and median scores, changed little, even if the absolute did.

    Burl Branham attributed it to a shorter shot string and better, more consistent patterns due to fewer deformed pellets ... and higher quality shot, better wads, ...

    I don't think there is much linear that can be said or inserted.


    GS
     
  5. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Can anybody work from the actual records?
     
  6. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    "Can anybody work from the actual records?"

    Sure. USA Shooting has full scores of every authorised shoot from forever. Same with UIT.

    Once/IF you can get all the data, then the stat work can begin, but even then, there are some fuzzy variables.

    In the same time period, UIT changed some angles on bunker and in skeet, they added sta 4 doubles. They were TRYING to add some separation of scores, and were successful for a year or so until the shooters learned the new game.


    GS
     
  7. tj303

    tj303 Member

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    As goatskin pointed out the rules for international have changed(to make things harder) as well as the shot payload. Whenever perfect scores are shot internationally the ISSF looks for ways to make it more difficult to get a perfect score. The shooting sequence in skeet was changed again in 2005 in response to Vincent Hancock (USA) shooting perfect scores.
    In trap "...ISSF shotgun committee has recommended for 2010 the following changes. The number of targets would be reduced. Instead of shooting the qualification match of 25 pair in five passes of each of the three schemes for 150 shots, only 15 pair would be shot in the three passes but the targets could be either an A, B or C scheme presentation, repeated three times. This would reduce the total number of targets shot to 90 in the qualification match and require more gun movement, because the shooter would not know in advance the location of his first target. The up-to-one- second delay between call and target appearance would also be eliminated."

    How do you try to examine the effect of shot charge weight when other aspects of the game also are changing?
     
  8. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    "How do you try to examine the effect of shot charge weight when other aspects of the game also are changing?"

    You don't. That's the whole point. OTH, the laws of physics don't change nor do the laws of probability. More pellets in the air increases the probability that a target will get hit by enough to break.
     
  9. Bruce Em

    Bruce Em Member

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    Lloyd Woodhouse said it to me personally. Did I question him or ask for the basis? No. I was getting a general overview from him while I was in training at the Olympic Training Center. The conversation brought me back into shotguns and I now enjoy it greatly.

    What could he have meant? In the context of the discussion, he said he had 100# girls shooting two flats a day. I can see that the reduced recoil would make a great difference for their scores.

    I can see that it would make a difference for a lot of shooters but maybe less so or even the other way for top level shooters.

    regards
     
  10. Hatshooter

    Hatshooter TS Member

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    keep in mind , a lot of international olympic shooters use copper plated shot also.
     
  11. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Neil in answer to your questions I'm going to give you a bit of second hand info. If both the folks at Benning and Danny Carlisle say it so I'm not going to question it. When the international load went down from 1 1/4 the scores went up.

    Now with the 24 gm load I've been told it is not really due to shell efficiency however you are touching on some truths here. The equipment has gotten better so has the level of competitor. The practice regimens of a member of the AMU are lots of shells more than any normal person could stand with handicap loads.

    I know from years ago shooting F.I.T.A.S.C. targets with 1 1/4 oz loads that the 1 oz load helps scores. Very few can survive shooting a lot of those shells. Ask anyone who shoots a lot of pigeons. Many will comment about being jumpy or hating to pull the trigger on a clay target after a big pigeon shoot. I will admit no one shoots less shot than their allowed to in competition. ( this is not to argue for more or less shot being better just for discussion.)

    It has been my observation that younger shooters and new shooters benefit most from the light shells. This may seem at first to be counterintuitive but the more one is effected by recoil the greater the benefit of a lighter shell.

    We all know about diminishing returns. The real question is where is the break even point on the more or less discussion? What do you think the scores would be if everyone shot 1 1/4 oz loads? Would they go up or down? How about 1 1/2 oz or maybe we should shoot 2 oz loads. Their is a point where their will be less shot in the shell than the shooter is capable but I think it may be less than your willing to admit.
    Joe
     
  12. Hollywood Marine

    Hollywood Marine TS Member

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    I don't shoot bunker, but my ATA average went up nine birds the year I switched to 7/8 oz. loads. maybe I just got better, but it seems to work for me.
    Doug Humble
     
  13. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Thank you Doug for your courage. Congradulations on your success and being open to trying somthing new.
    Joe
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Doug, I don't think anyone doubts that lighter loads work for singles and short yardage. Maybe not as well as more, but they work and will probably take you to AA. It's long yardage, where patterns thin out, that more pellets are needed to hit them all when you make a perfect shot.

    Joe, I've never heard anyone advocate 1 1/4 oz. loads, and young shooter should shoot a ounce, I agree. If fact, I urged SCTP to require no more than an ounce. But they shoot from 16.

    Neil
     
  15. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    I remember reading about the training regimen of two gold medalists from the 2008 games - Glenn Eller and Vincent Hancock (both AMU shooters) - in the 10 months leading up to Beijing they each shot around 80,000 rounds of practice.

    That's a lot of rounds.

    24grams or not - 2000 rounds per week is a lot of rounds.

    that's like shooting the grand program every week for 10 months.

    now tell me you could do that with 1 1/8 oz and not be affected.
     
  16. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Neil were getting much closer to a consensus. Here's the problem If a Jr shooter or Woman competes in the caps they will get the snot kicked out of them with handicap loads.

    Now if there is an advantage of heavy shells to any shooters it is the obese ones. Look at most of the best handicap shooters their pretty solid. In comparison how many 140 lb and under 27 yrd higher average shooters are out there. If the Idea of a handicap system is to level the playing field than why do the same people always win? Seems to me something might be broken. Now I understand your opposition since in my opinion it favors the current batch of top shooters. I don't think much would change except for the recoil.

    Now help me out here. Your saying that a 1 1/8 oz shell is far superior to a 7/8 oz load. What about 1 oz?

    Using your logic than why don't you suggest shooting 1 1/4 oz loads since even 1 1/8 oz loads cant break all targets in the outer 10" ring. Just trying to see where you think the useful cutoff point is.

    Joe
     
  17. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    I think there is a misunderstanding here. I shoot bunker and have never heard anyone say that scores went up with the use of the 24Gm loads. I did hear that they went up when we switched from 32 Gm to 28Gm (1-1/8 to 1 oz) in the 80's. Everything I have ever heard or seen is the game got tougher with the advert of the 24 GM load. Personally my best performances have been with the 24GM but believe ammo had nothing to do with it. I was just on on those days.

    Tom
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The statement that bunker scores went up after the change to 7/8 oz loads has been posted several times over the last two years. It now looks like the research by Dr. Andrew shows that this is not true.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    In England shotguns are regulated for 28 gram (1 oz) loads at 950 ~ 1000 fps. This is the standard for trap, sporting clays, and driven birds (these - typically at 60 plus yards).

    If it works so well for them, why won't it work here??

    Food for thought.

    David D
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I don't think we are getting any closer together on this at all, Joe, not after "Now I understand your opposition since in my opinion it favors the current batch of top shooters" which I consider an insult - as well as absolute proof that you don't know what's been going on at the ATA for the last few years.

    But I'll throw you an olive branch. Though I've mostly lost my influence as I head off for honorable pasturage, I'll promise to fight any move the big dogs might try to make ATA to limit women and kids to heavy loads to make sure they don't shoot better. I myself am firmly committed to the idea that if they want to raise their scores by shooting 1 ounce, 7/8, 3/4 or less they should continue to be permitted to do so.

    Neil
     
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