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Interesting article, from the anti-gunners

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Coyote 270, Oct 7, 2009.

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  1. Coyote 270

    Coyote 270 Member

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    Undercover Stings Expose 'Gun Show Loophole'
    Wednesday, October 07, 2009


    Print ShareThisNEW YORK — New York City officials secretly videotaped dozens of firearm purchases they say were illegal at gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole."

    The sting, described in a city report released Wednesday, was conducted at seven gun shows in Tennessee, Ohio and Nevada. Those states are among the many that permit private unlicensed dealers, known as "occasional sellers," to sell weapons at gun shows without conducting background checks.

    Gun-control advocates say the loophole makes it easier for criminals to acquire guns and prevents law enforcement from being able to trace those weapons if they are used in crimes.

    Nine states, including New York, have passed laws to close the loophole, requiring background checks on at least all handgun purchases at gun shows. Mayor Michael Bloomberg has long campaigned for Congress to close the loophole, and for states to do it on their own if the federal government does not.

    Even in states that haven't closed the loophole, federal law bars "occasional sellers" from selling guns to people they have reason to believe would fail a background check.

    This is where the Bloomberg operation says 19 out of 30 sellers broke the law during the investigation, in which undercover buyers wore tiny cameras concealed in baseball hats and purses and audio recorders hidden in wristwatches.

    In each purchase, the investigator showed interest in buying a gun, agreed on a price and then indicated that he probably could not pass a background check.

    Most sellers allowed the purchases anyway, responding in some cases by saying, "I couldn't pass one either," or "I don't care," according to the city's report.

    Two assault rifles and 20 semiautomatic handguns were bought this way, the report said.

    The 11 who refused sales showed they knew the law.

    "Once you say that, I'm kind of obligated not to," said one seller, according to the report. "I think that's what the rules are."

    "Fact is, you done told me too much," said another who refused. "I wouldn't sell one to you at all."

    The city has no legal authority over the dealers and is using its findings to make a point. A copy of the report is being sent to every member of Congress and the findings will be shared the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

    "The gun show loophole is a deadly serious problem, and this undercover operation exposes just how pervasive and serious it is," the mayor said in a statement.

    The undercover operation took place from about May to August and its $1.5 million cost was paid by city taxpayers. The city hired a team of 40 private investigators from an outside firm to make the purchases.

    The sting comes three years after Bloomberg's administration conducted a similar operation focusing on illegal straw purchases at gun shops in Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia that authorities believe were responsible for selling guns used in crimes in New York City. (A straw purchase is when one person fills out the paperwork and buys the gun for somebody else.)

    Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun dealers targeted in its 2006 investigation.

    As a result of the suit, 20 dealers are being monitored by a court-appointed special master. One is out of business, two more are expected to be put under monitoring agreements and three were dropped from the suit. A final dealer settled with the city but the terms did not include a monitor.

    Investigators in this year's sting also attempted straw purchases at gun shows, and were successful 16 out of 17 times.

    The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.
     
  2. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious on what legal grounds NYC authorities have to conduct sting operations not only outside of NYC but outside of the state?
     
  3. mastiff711

    mastiff711 Member

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    Brian I would tend to agree with you on that one but I honestly think the seller shouldn't have sold anything to someone after they were told that they probably couldn't pass a background check. I live in TN and I think this gives our state a "bad rep" and just something else for the anti-gun fanatics to rave about.

    Stacey
     
  4. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I agree. But if they fish long enough they will find something. And then blow it out of proportion or come up with statistics that say what they want them to say.
     
  5. whiz-bang

    whiz-bang Active Member

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    If New York officials are so worried about illegal guns I would suggest the police stop and check every person walking the streets with there pants down to there knees and there under ware up to there neck wearing there hat sideways with gang colors to a body search. Then search the street drug dealers and the crack houses. The police now who these people are and were they live. And we all know why this dose not happen.
     
  6. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Thinking about this more.... The NYC authorities are conducting video and audio surveillance outside of their jurisdiction. In effect, they are simply ordinary citizens when they do this in another state. So, since they are recording audio and video without the consent of the person being recorded, isn't this a violation of law?
     
  7. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    Loup hole in a nutshell,

    At a gunshow, if you are not a dealer, you are a "Private Citizen"!!

    You as a private citizen are not under the same laws as a dealer. If you are a "dealer" all state and fed laws pretain to you and you had better follow them!

    As a private citizen you can sell your firearms to anyone you so chose!

    Best said this way:

    Fear the government that Fears its people!!

    The only loup hole would be dealers not enforceing the existing laws and paperwork.
     
  8. mastiff711

    mastiff711 Member

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    Well said timberfaller!
     
  9. Don Steele

    Don Steele Well-Known Member

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    WOW...what a story..!! Thank you Mayor Blomberg for making us aware it's all them hillbilly guns that are the problem...!!! They're getting into your otherwise pristine paradise and hurting folks..!! Them poor New Yorkers can't seem to stay out of the way of hillbilly guns on the rampage..!!
    WHAT A PIECE OF SH**......ENFORCE YOUR OWN LAWS IDIOT..!!
    OK...calming down...
    Timberfaller..that's why there has been so much effort over the years to close the "Private Sale Loophole". Ted Kennedy tried to stick such a provision banning private sales into all his gun control bills.
     
  10. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    I just wonder where all the liberal folks are who objected to the Acorn video tapings as illegal? Isn't this the same thing? If those "federal officers" were doing the videoing why weren't those doing the illegal activities arrested? Where is the liberal outrage? Why is this activity OK now? Could this be the pot calling thre kettle black? This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  11. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    Timberfaller stated above, "As a private citizen you can sell your firearms to anyone you so chose!"

    That's not true if you know the buyer is ineligible under federal law. State and local laws may also apply.
     
  12. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    Tom,

    Key word "know"

    I still have some trust for people, except ones in 3 piece suits that show up at gun shows.

    Also guys who show up at gun shows looking like Mikeal Moore, Red Flag!!!
     
  13. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    It all goes back to the "hidden" agenda of government, we can't have "Private" Citizens! They MUST be "subjective" in nature!

    If you don't fully understand the meaning of the Second Amendment, go find the achrives of the 3 day of debate it took to pass the wording of the Second Amemdment.

    There are so many laws (county,state,and Federal) that are nul and void by the Second Amendment its SCARY! We just don't have the leaders today to enforce what is right!

    Thats the difference between our Founders and the clowns we have in power today
     
  14. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    The ATF came about because the government did not want to downsize. Back after probition failed they didn't want to put ALL those agents on the unemployment line. So they created the ATF!

    Do we need them? NO

    Bush Sr. said it best, Jack booted thugs

    Bloomberg? Al Capone rings a bell
     
  15. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Somewhat off-topic, but maybe note. After a young man was beaten to death with boards in Chicago, I read articles saying this was evidence of the need for more gun control.
     
  16. mastiff711

    mastiff711 Member

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    I will reiterate my point.....the guys shouldn't have went ahead and sold the guns after they were told a background check might not be passed. But I still think Brian has made a good point. On what authority was this sting conducted (if any) and did THEY break any privacy laws??? Without any authority from US Marshals shouldn't NY have minded their own business? To me, this is something that should have been done on a state or federal level. A local guy here in TN just last year got into some trouble selling guns at a flea market over this same kind of thing. I honestly think if this continues...at some point there will no longer be gun shows. I think the guys selling the guns at the gun shows were more interested in selling their guns than they were about "following the rules". To me, this just gives those "anti-gun liberals" more to rant about and we don't need that kind of negative attention. I personally think guns are a right and not a privilege and I don't like the direction our country is headed in. "Change is not always for the better".

    Stacey
     
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