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instinctive shooting???

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Barrelbulge(Fl), Jun 3, 2011.

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  1. Barrelbulge(Fl)

    Barrelbulge(Fl) TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I went to the range yesterday and shot my normal Thursday morning 100. On the first 50 I took my time to focus on the bird, but it didn't pay off. Very low scores, blamed it on the wind. In the middle of the 3rd round I went back to what I call instintive shooting. You know pull,bang, kind of quick, not puuulll baanng. I did a heck of a lot better shooting instinctively than I do trying to focus.The faster I shoot the more birds I get. Does this make sense and, does someone have a theory on it? Bulge.
     
  2. likes-to-shoot

    likes-to-shoot Well-Known Member

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    I've found the same thing happens to me. My theory is when you take your time to focus on the bird a person has a tendency to aim the shotgun. I usually have to fight this tendency when I have a good score going. I think I have to protect the score and end up destroying it. lol

    In what you call instinctive shooting a person looks at the bird and pulls the trigger as soon as there is proper gun alignment to the target. The latter works the best for me also.

    Bill
     
  3. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    My thought it might change poi...
     
  4. rd

    rd TS Member

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    Read "Zen and the Art of Archery". Become one with the target, grasshopper. Do not aim, do not think, let your mind become the void. Your eyes and muscles will do it with no conscious thought. It works with archery as with all hand-eye sports. You don't aim or even think about throwing a baseball- trapshooting is no different. G. Fred Asbell also wrote a classic book titled "Instinctive Shooting" available on his website.
     
  5. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Here is the real story. Your brain has two parts, the conscious and the subconscious mind. It is best to use your subconscious mind for shooting. The reason being that the subconscious mind does not make mistakes. When you say you focus, your conscious mind is helping out and screwing things up. When you get things done using the subconscious mind, it's called being in the zone. HMB
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    HMB, are you saying a new shooter to trap wouldn't ever miss if he shot with his sub conscience on every shot? What a crock of quick excuses that conscience versus sub conscience for shooting out of control!! What reminds our sub conscience mind that things are correct? News flash, our eyes and not some mystic mind game?

    Harem
     
  7. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    This, "instinctive" shooting is what I do. Many people ask me how I can even see the bird when between the time the gun is on my shoulder and the trigger is pulled is usually less than a second. I tell them that i do NOT see the bird, or the bead or the barrel. They look at me real funny. What I do see is movement and the reaction is automatic to point the gun and pull the trigger.

    I tell them, "The longer you take to think about what you are doing, the more time you have to think of what could go wrong and then you proceed to do it wrong!"

    Several years ago I remember reading an article somewhere, it might have been a shooting magazine or maybe it was a science newsletter but they hooked up a group of Olympic trapshooters to an EEG to record brain activity while they were shooting. There was a small, but statistically significant difference in averages when the left side of the brain was more active than the right side. The left side calculates, analyzes logically and then issues orders to move muscles as needed to point the barrel where it is supposed to be. The problem is that by the time the problem has been analyzed and a solution as to where to point is determined, the problem has changed and the old solution has to be updated. Meanwhile, when the right side of the brain, which is the "artistic" side, deals in feelings, spatial analysis, visual interpretation etc, was the more active side, the averages increased a small but statistically significant amount when it "just looked right".

    Add in the eye focus time, as a contributing factor, and the fact that peripheral vision, which is a survival trait to detect movement outside of the central core of vision, can cause a much more rapid response to detected movement and you have a better response to picking up the target without actually "SEEING" it. When a predator was about to spring, our primate ancestors used the peripheral vision to jump out of the way as soon as movement was detected and long before it was analyzed just what the movement was.

    By "seeing" it I mean hard focusing on the trap house roof to try to pick up the bird as it leaves the trap using the central core of your vision.

    If you want to test this, take a dime or such, hold it about six or eight inches above the spread open hands (4 inch separation) of a person. Tell them to very closely look at that dime, Examine it to see it the date is shown or the heads or tails are facing them and then tell them to smack their hands together to catch the dime between them when you drop it. Almost all people will be late and the dime will be past their hands before they can catch it. Next, using the same setup, but tell them to just kind of look over your shoulder off in the distance. Most people can catch the dime when it falls by letting their peripheral vision catch and react to the movement. You can also do this with a ruler to measure the difference in how far the ruler falls before the testee reacts given the two modes.

    On those occasions when a broken bird is thrown, I can even pull the gun off and finger off the trigger before the bird is actually "seen".

    Now, every now and then, for some reason I may just catch a quick glimpse of the end of the barrel or bead and the lost target is more likely. One time someone asked me if I was ever going to get that missing bead replaced on my shotgun. I had to look to see that the front bead was indeed gone. He told me that he noticed it had been gone for maybe six weeks. I never even noticed it until he mentioned it.
     
  8. RobertT

    RobertT Well-Known Member

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    Pyrdek, great thread. You need to clean your gun more often though:)
     
  9. rd

    rd TS Member

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    Hap-read the books. Of course there is a learning curve and a new shooter won't shoot perfectly. It isn't magic at all, but a function of how our mind has evolved over time. our hand-eye coordination is regulated by the lower or instinctive parts of our brain that have to do with throwing rocks, spears ( actually darts), and using bows and arrows. We survive as a species because we have evolved this skill to a very high level. It works very well if you can get the "intellectual" or " analytical" part of your brain out of the way and let it work. It is an amazing process, and everyone who can achieve it truly does have feelings of " being in the zone". The best shooters can do it more often and for longer than the rest. You may scoff at it, but it is your loss if you don't give it a try.
     
  10. Barrelbulge(Fl)

    Barrelbulge(Fl) TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Pyrdek, that is what I do. As soon as the butt pad hits my arm pocket I call for the bird. The whole sequence from dropping a shell in the gun, bringing it to shouler, calling pull and shooting isn't more than 3-4 seconds if that. Bulge.
     
  11. archangel

    archangel Member

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    interesting thread. I have not been shooting long this is my 3rd year. about 4-5 weeks ago I changed my set-up. I used to set-up very deliberatly making sure every thing was lined up loooking in the right spot ect,not obsesive but taking my time. now I bring the gun up while looking out as soon as it hits the spot on my cheek I call pull go to the bird and smash it. my scores have improved, i'm seeing the target better ect. I'm not looking at the beads to check alignment I mount, point to the target and smash it. I could not tell you what Im seeing except pieces of the bird. now if i miss i slow it down a bit and make sure i am following thru with my head on the gun and not moving the gun before I see the target. - mike
     
  12. Conn. Man

    Conn. Man Member

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    Bulge,

    SHORT AND SWEET----"POKE AND HOPE" works for me.

    Sandy Holehouse
     
  13. cmmonaco78

    cmmonaco78 Member

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    Great Thread!
     
  14. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    "The longer you take to think about what you are doing, the more time you have to think of what could go wrong and then you proceed to do it wrong!"

    I believe this whole heartedly. I have tried to explain to our HS team shooters to practice mounting the gun at home so that when they shoot its second nature. Some of them take forever to mount and call for the bird. If we force them to mount and shoot quickly at practice, their hit percentage actually goes up greatly. I know its simply not allowing them to think about it. It certainly helped my game. When i first started Trap an older fella that had been shooting forever and was on my squad told me as i was struggling "when its your turn just mount the gun and shoot". He said "quit all the other BS and just shoot like you do when hunting birds". I thought about that and it made so much sense. When i Dove or Quail hunt, there ain't no time to do any thinking. You mount and shoot. Made sense to me.
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I'd invite you to participate in a test to prove whether or not it's all about the data input via the eyes and the culminations of such. In the zone certainly doesn't mean your blind or brain dead and operate on your sub conscience moves alone to break targets. If the sub conscience ruled entirely for making a successful shot, you'd pass my test in a heartbeat but neither you nor anyone else could either.

    Turn off the lights on a very dark night, light up the target only and we'll help ya load the gun via flashlight and you get in your zone and break targets with your sub conscience mind. I doubt you'd come even somewhat close to your normal ATA averages, let alone your zone moments. Why? Because the only thing you can see is the target alone.

    Ever pay attention to the times of day the top shooters presquad for major shoots? There's a great reason for that move and it has nothing at all to do with their sub conscience mind. It does however have something to do with their eyes.

    And, I certainly don't believe everything that's written in books either. Under the circumstances, I do win my fair share of trophies at Grands and state shoots as ignorant and crippled up as I am.

    Hap
     
  16. SMOKEIT

    SMOKEIT Well-Known Member

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    This instinctive thing does not work for me. I tend to Quick call or "jump the target". I believe in the "Quiet Eye Theory" I have to pause after mount--get my vision pushed out --gun still--then call. Different strokes for different folks...SMOKIT
     
  17. Barrelbulge(Fl)

    Barrelbulge(Fl) TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Every once in a while i do get a little premature ejaculation with a trigger pulled too soon. Results in a miss, shooting behind the bird. Bulge.
     
  18. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    I think Buldge has discovered that he is a bead rider if given enough time to get on it.

    Watching the target not the bead or barrel isn't exactly instictive shooting because you are still sighting the gun but relying on a known position of the gun relative to the eye (the sight).

    Instictive shooting is more like shooting a pistol from the hip. Lots of fun if you are just rolling around a few cans for laughs. I wouldn't bet alot of money on being able to knock a trap target out of the air that way.
     
  19. schockstrap

    schockstrap Active Member

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    I think this is one of those things that's all related to your perception of what's actually happening. I'd wager to say that even the folks that call as soon as the gun hits their cheek have a consistent, metered setup process. To them it feels instantaneous -- to others it feels like it takes a split second to happen. I think you need to try a few options to see which process works best for your brain's interpretation of reality. Basically, you need to define a repeatable process that works best for you. If I try to shoot the instant the gun is mounted, I wil start "snap shooting" in short order... my brain needs to perceive that split second pause before I call for the target in order to work properly. Obviously others are different.

    This is somewhat like gun hold points... I always chuckle when people tell me they hold their gun exactly 1 foot over the trap house front lip. There's no way for them to really know this. Their brain interprets the gap as 1 foot based on the input it gets from the eye. My brain likely interprets the same gap as a different distance. It may be close enough to not matter, but given that the image is roughly 1/64 of an inch tall when it hits your retina, I would guess the error is large. "Hold a parallel gun" is another expression that cannot possibly be interpreted the same way by 2 different people.

    This is why practice and number of targets shot matter so much. You have to learn how your mind interprets multiple situations and build your process around it. Some people are better at recognizing the patterns than others, and can adapt quickly. The rest of us are stuck slugging it out.

    --Dan
     
  20. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Hap maybe someday you will be able to visit the zone. HMB
     
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