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Information I gathered on shell speed

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Feb 20, 2013.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    I called and talked to the following shell mfgrs customer service depts,

    Winchester

    Remington

    Federal

    Winchester said they recieved a request in writing from the ATA in 1981 to increase shell speed on shells to higher speed for long range hdcp shooting a speed of 1275fps was requested, but shooter complaints of harsh recoil caused the reduction to 1250 fps and they the ATA said 3 1/4 dram shells.

    Also duee to the Sporting Clays NSCA assoc request for faster shells for Sporting Clay shooting.

    Remington said they recieved a letter from the ATA that was addressed to all shell mfgrs to increase the 1 1/8th oz load to 1275 fps and shooter complaints to them caused the speed reduction to 1235 per Chris of Remington

    Federal Customer Service said they recieved a form letter from the ATA addressed to all shell mfgrs for a 3 1/4 dram shell speed of 1275 fps in 1981
    And that brought about the Federal Hdcp Load. They also recieved a letter from the NSCA for faster shells for use in Sporting Clays to 1300fps

    It was the action of the ATA in 1981 that brought about the shell increase and not SAAMI, all 3 said it was not a request from SAAMI.

    The action is directly related to was President in 1981 and the BOD in 1981 that brought about the faster shells, and their the ATA request for faster shells for long range handicap shooting.

    I remember the first Winchester Silver Bullet shot shells with the markings
    ++PLUS++ at the SILVER DOLLAR SOUTHERN GRAND was the first time I saw them
    I had them Chronographed and they were 1320fps, we chrono'd them at Yankee Hill Gun Club Waverly Ohio, they were ass kickers and we used them for shootoffs for a few years, but speed was reduced due to complaints from shooters, and lower sales.

    Rio said they were following the competetiors shell speeds.

    But all said we still mfgr the 1200 fps shell.

    These are the facts from the Mfgrs.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Good for you, Gary. And good for the manufacturers as well!

    But I think we need to know _exactly_ what question you asked when you made that call. _Exactly_, since the replies aren't clear as to what question they were answering.

    So remember back, Gary. What did you ask them, exactly, word for word as best as you can recall it. What we need is something like "I said . . .", recounting your very words.

    Again, congratulations and thanks for doing this.

    Neil
     
  3. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    1981 ATA President was Douglas House

    BOD Board of directors were

    Lynn Burford

    Edward Brown

    Randy Clark

    Larry Scott

    Got this information from ATA web site PEOPLE AND STORIES From Ashley Johnson
    at ATA Offices in Sparta

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  4. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I find it difficult to follow the written word of LS, can you imagine trying to pin down specifics in a rambling telephone conversation?

    Where in the world does he get the idea anyone claimed SAAMI asked for the speed increase? That is just crazy.

    Was the NSCA even around in 1981 to write that letter?
     
  5. Jim R

    Jim R Ljutic Nut TS Supporters

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    This is from the NSCA web site on their history.


    NSCA was founded in March of 1989 and headquartered in San Antonio, Texas.


    http://www.nssa-nsca.org/index.php/nsca-sporting-clays-shooting/about-nsca-sporting-clays/nsca-sporting-clays-organization-history/


    Looks like Dr. Longlips stepped on it again.
     
  6. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Where disd I quote the NSCA letter date, Sporting clays came later.

    NSCA requests were in the same folder on shell requests.

    870 do not add to my post un-truths, you have an imagination and very good atis quotes.

    Look in the barrels at registered shoots and look at the boxes, are there 1300 fps shell boxes in there, yes according to Neil Winston SAAMI specs say 1250 fps + or - 90 fps equals 1340 fps.

    Shell mfgrs load shells to close specs than that and test fire their ammo for speed before Mfg them their shells are very close to their speed specs on the boxes.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  7. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    LS:

    Not adding untruths, just pointing out how poor your writing skills are. Makes it difficult to follow what you are saying. I'm not really sure what "atis" quotes are, but if you are implying I was trying to quote you, I didn't.

    I believe you that ATA wrote letters to the companies, just not sure what the context was without reading them. That said, what does it have to do with Neil's attempts to explain to you what SAAMI's standards really mean. Also, keep in mind that the powers that be in the ATA at that time probably did not understand the SAAMI standards any better than you.

    What are you talking about with 1250fps plus 90fps equals 1340fps? Do you mean 1200 + 90 = 1290, that would be 3dram under the standard. 1340 marked boxs would not, assuming 1.125 oz of course.
     
  8. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    I was using Neil Winston's SAAMI specs that he souch relies on, 1250fps Plus or Minus 90 fps equals 1250+ 90fps=1340fps plain and simple.

    Shell Mfgrs use closer tolerances than that when the Mfgr their shells just ask them yourself, do not rely on others to inform you.

    Maybe you need Neil's Graphs!!!!!

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "Was the NSCA even around in 1981 to write that letter?"

    No they weren't they were formed in 1989 at least according to there own rules.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    You talked to somebody from Win, Fed, Rem in 2013 that remembers receiving a letter from the ATA in 1981?? Dam those guys are good.
     
  11. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Dr. Longshot: Thanks for the information. Clearly written. I am amazed at the grumpy people who need to take their medication before writing. You earned your ATTA BOY for the week. Remember it takes 10 ATTA BOYS to = 1 AW S--T. Fred
     
  12. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Was there an original question somewhere? SAAMI is just an association of members that keeps specifications. All members and their shotshells are under voluntary performance standards. SAAMI doesn't limit 12 gauge shells to 11,500 psi., the industry does, and uses SAMMI to list it as a max. standard.

    Wayne
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "Top long-yardage handicap shooters are firing today shells about like they did 25 years ago."

    25????? 1981 was 32 years ago.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    wayneo:

    Hard to tell what the point is sometimes.

    SAAMI shows 3 Dram as 1200 (+/- 90) fps for 12 guage 1.125 oz loads, tested under their conditions. That's why I questioned LS on the 1250 +/- 90 issue he posted, it is meaningless and seems to indicate he still doesn't grasp the issue here. Not sure where he was going with that...1250's could be 3 Dram, 1340s or 1300s for that matter, could not.

    I guess it's really almost meaningless anyway. Does LS realize that if he tested a batch of shells under the correct conditions (again 1.125 oz) and each was exactly 1260fps, he could call those 3 Dram, 3 1/4 Dram, or even 3 1/2 Dram if he wanted, and he would be correct in each case under SAAMI guidelines?
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I have inside information that we will not ever see what what Gary asked the manufacturers. That's a pity since all this seems to be about 3 1/4 DE shells. And we don't use them. And the 1982 rulebook specified 3-dram shells.

    My quote was posted by u r 2 but it is out for context and here's the source. What happened when the BOD voted to accept SAMMI's definitions for shell specifications was that WW Handicap shells showed up. They are at the upper end of what other makers were selling, but not something new.

    These test were done with an Oehler Model 71 inductive chronograph in the way the legend describes.

    GRAFALLSPEEDSNOV90-1.gif

    There were plenty of what we now call handicap-shells being sold as 3-dram in 1990 when I did these tests. (And many of these shells were from past years, of course; I needed seven lot numbers of each and just tested what I had collected.) That's why I wrote that nothing was changed by the introduction of Handicap-speed shells; we were shooing plenty of them already.

    Part of the above data, just one data point, was supplied by these Federal Paper Champions. It illustrates the variation in speeds you will get from four boxes of shells from the same case of the best shells available at the time. This is a test of a hundred of them.

    BBL4JAN903_8FEDFINAL_zpsa0dcc646.gif


    I think Gary's investigations are very interesting and I thank him for It. Surely none of us suspected that the ATA was asking all three manufacturers to make 3 1/4 DE target shells. Who was supposed to shoot them, I wonder?

    Neil
     
  16. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Ok first this. The original "handicap" bullet was produced either in 74 or 75. Thats several years prior to 81. Why then was a request necessary from the ATA to again produce such a shell?

    Second, DL states the letters were received by shell manufacturers in 81 to produce a speeder bullet. The first "silver bullet" never appeared till in the 90's. Why such along time lap between request and production if ammo companies were truly trying to appease the ATA?
     
  17. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    When I called and asked the question to all 3 mfgrs they did research to find information, what I am suspecting is a conspiracy between the shell mfgrs to get the top sales away from Winchester as they dominated shell sales for years.

    Ask when did the first Silver Bullrts show up with ++AA++ marks on them?

    My fist introduction to them was at the Southern Grand years ago, problem is I don't remember when.

    I finally got calls returned several hours later on my question from the Mfgrs customer svc depts, I got a lot of answers we still make the 1200fps shells from all of them.

    They quoted in their folder of information that NSCA asked for faster shells for their targets, they did not say nor did I ask.

    But for n\Neils posting of SAAMI specs they have a plus+ or Minus- 90 fps
    spec 1250 -90fps= 1160 and a + 90 fps =1340 for the same shell, that is a lot of variation that I don't believe shell mfgrs would approve of and I know shooters would not approve of, But getting back to the + or - 90fps the 1300fps
    Sporting Clays loads would be legal with that SAAMI allowance.

    But if the advertised speed is 1300 fps they are not legal ATA Loads

    AA27AA you lied or they lied, I have their names to back up I called them and am keeping them in strict confidence. Plus I have some of their e-mail replies.

    Guys like you ruin this site of information technology, you are in the same class as Flagrato, Little Don, Grntitan,870,+ yourself.

    Please do not read or post on my threads.

    Read the ATA Hall of Fame Logo you may learn something.

    It is the deviation of the past ATA Presidents and BOD and Executive Committee that has the ATA in the condition it is in.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  18. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Gary Bryant... President and chief of "comspiracy theories"
    He has no embarassment level.
     
  19. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Back then there was a definite difference between the RED AAs and the SILVER AAs, your shoulder was the judge.

    But the Top Shooters Shot them, but not all of them, some stayed w/ 2 3/4 Dram loads.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary what are we to do with you?

    You have been writing this for years and years

    "But for n\Neils posting of SAAMI specs they have a plus+ or Minus- 90 fps spec 1250 -90fps= 1160 and a + 90 fps =1340 for the same shell, that is a lot of variation that I don't believe shell mfgrs would approve of and I know shooters would not approve of, But getting back to the + or - 90fps the 1300fps Sporting Clays loads would be legal with that SAAMI allowance.

    It makes no difference what you believe . Your belief is just wrong. You don't know what you are talking about.

    Here's the page from the SAAMI booklet

    SAAMI-Page-snapshot_zps963fd211.jpg

    That speed specification in the middle near the top. It says

    "Velocity in ft/sec Mean instrumental velocity at 3 feet plus or minus 90 ft/sec."

    This is not something you can argue about, Gary. It is a fact.

    Why do you go on and on about 1250 ft/sec" or 3 1/4 DE? We don't use them. We haven’t for at least 50 years (I don't know about before that.)

    It's pretty clear from your quotes that you talked with the manufacturers about 3 1/4 DE shells. Why? We don't shoot them. Did _they_ steer the conversation that way?

    Did they say they actually built these shells for trapshooting? When you write "a letter from the ATA that was addressed to all shell mfgrs to increase the 1 1/8th oz load to 1275 fps and shooter complaints to them caused the speed reduction to 1235 per Chris of Remington" it sounds like they did make them. Is that what Chris at Remington told you? In 1981?

    I sure wish you would tell us exactly what you asked so we could figure out where all the 3 1/4 DE information came from. I think that once you have extensively quoted the makers you owe it to them to tell us what they thought they were talking about.

    Neil


    .
     
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