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In this age of informaton???

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by 9point3, Jul 9, 2009.

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  1. 9point3

    9point3 Well-Known Member

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    Why doesn't the ATA mandate that ATA shoot programs be available on line?

    Why does't the ATA mandate that clubs that host ATA shoots have more info listed on the ATA hosted club web site.

    Why aren't ATA shoot results available in a simple database?
     
  2. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    A better question might be, why does the ATA still need printed shoot reports along with a floppy disc that has to be mailed to them instead of accepting an email with all the shoot info attached?

    Eric
     
  3. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Because many people get some of that information from the Trap & Field. Check the "credits" page and see who are listed as T&F's advisors.

    Since I'm an old-timer I like the magazine. This, of course is bucking the electronic trend, however and if trapshooting is going to live on, it better do more with the internet. It's powerful tool for promotion.
     
  4. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    9point3 you ask some interesting questions perhaps it you used the computer services that you have to do a little more browsing on the ATA website. You would have seen some interesting facts.

    As an example on the ATA home page if you click on Results you would find that you get a message that says

    "Results Coming Soon New and Improved Results Page Coming Soon!!!"

    Which tells me the system isn't totally ready to go yet. Also if you go to General Info and click on Various Statistics you will see a a heading that says "ATA Membership Profile (source: University of Dayton)" in that profile you will also see these facts.

    "• 58% own a computer • 46% have internet access • 33% have visited the ATA web-site"

    In all fairness to those that don't own a computer or have internet services The 66+% that have never visited the ATA web site what about them? Just maybe the ATA feel that it is in the best interests of the majority of it membership hold off at least until the web site in completed before they start mandating computer services to serve the minority. Now of course you understand this is just my opinion I am not a spokesman for the ATA.

    BTW above I have put a Website URL to the ATA Membership Profile above.

    Bob Lawless
     
  5. 9point3

    9point3 Well-Known Member

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    I clicked on the "results" link on the ATA site and see that a data base will soon be coming but there is also this paragraph listed

    "New and Improved Results Page Coming Soon!!!

    But, never fear! Shoot results are still available here on shootata.com. You just have to navigate to them a little differently. Each ATA Club and State Association has their very own page on shootata.com, and on that page you can view shoot results as well as shoot programs. Get started by clicking here and choosing your zone, followed by your state, then select your club and you'll be viewing results and programs in no time!"

    This is a joke because none of the shoots I have went to have any results or programs posted.
     
  6. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    I'm curious...

    In the years that we belonged to the ATA, we were never polled/asked for any personal information that would have told the organization anything about us that they couldn't have gathered by looking at us.

    Since we weren't asked, I can assume that others weren't either; so how did ATA generate the stats regarding eduction, home ownership etc??

    Carol Lister
     
  7. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    9point,

    To quote a friend of mine, in a perfect world we'd have all that.

    This is a numbers based game, so the emphasis could be a little stronger. I agree with you there, but mandate? Maybe more would use it if it was there.

    Have you got your ATA card filled out? It's required. We're each responsible for our own numbers as I understand it. Took a beating the other day because I didn't have all the numbers.

    As a customer, it's fair to ask for the numbers. Remember, though, there are lots of volunteers out there doing the work and they get tired and burned out. I'm thinking of volunteering a little more myself.

    I'd like to add to your list - Would like to see squad scores as in the Website Address listed above. This is from the 3S software package. Still compiling the exact steps involved. 3S demo is available...

    Thanks, Joe
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    9point3

    "This is a joke because none of the shoots I have went to have any results or programs posted."

    You can lead a Horse to water but you can't make him drink!!!!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    9point3- Would you volunteer to put the data into site to accomplish what you asked for? My local club only records the shoot information on paper. We have around 14 shoots a year with 15-20 shooters. It would only take you about 1/2 hour each month. The 1000 other small clubs might also ask you to do the work for them. That would get you up to around 500 hours each month.

    Our shoots are cashiered by a volunteer. This requires around 4 hours work at the shoot (squadding, classification, cashiering, recording scores and keeping the shoot going is all part of the job). The day after the shoot around 1.5 hours additional work is required. The cash has to be balanced, forms and money have to be sent to the State Secretary, the ATA and Trap and Field). These volunteer jobs require much effort, they hinder your shooting and few shooters even say thanks. I don't want to add more work to these people who are the real backbone of trap shooting.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    With the 3S trap computer program we can generate all the required paperwork for the ATA and the state association in about 5 minutes at the end of the shoot. For less than $1000 a club can get a laptop, printer & the 3s program.

    One word of caution, according to George Cook who designed the 3S program the 3S program is NOT designed to work with Windows Vista, although there is a Windows XP compatability mode that can be configured in Vista, it takes someone with a lot of computer knowledge to do it.

    We got a new computer with Vista installed and just went thru the switch from Vista to XP mode yesterday with George talking us thru the steps. The XP mode will only work on stand alone computers that are not networked. Test runs of the change have proven sucessful and glitch free.

    Eric
     
  11. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    Pat, In all fairness to one of 9.3's suggestion, the data is already there. I think he's looking for way to have it compiled by shoot. If you look at the data in the shooter info center, each shoot is assigned a unique shoot number. Seems to me that a good db guy (certainly not me) could find a way to make this happen.

    Bob, statistics are great, but these are a minimum of three years old according to the date on the bottom of the page. I remember completing some survey several years ago. I suspect the data for this page is 5+ years old. If a new survey was conducted today would much change? Hard to say.

    To me "under construction" translates to "cool idea, but we don't have the time or money to complete it".
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Tom I for one will be the last to say you're are wrong I do however feel that by pointing these things out it gets those asking questions thinking. That in turn get everyone to realize that these thing don't happen by themselves it takes time and manpower for these thing to come about.

    The original questions were "Why doesn't the ATA mandate" for two and "Why aren't ATA shoot results available in a simple database?" for the last I responded because I become confused by the assumption that the ATA should mandate these things. If those that were requesting these thing were told by their employer that they were getting a cut in pay because the company had to expand it services they would be PO.

    Yet they make these suggestions and think nothing of putting more work on clubs and the ATA. When Target prices rise club dues rise these people are usually the first to complain. Now I am not trying to insult 9point3 or attack him it is not addressed directly to him this is just one thread of many that are looking for more on this board at this time.

    All I am saying is lets all try to think of those that have to do the work invovled in your request before you put more demands on what in many cases are volunteer help. Think is what I was striving for and it would seem that that is happening.

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Yeah. Bob brought it to my attention - all the volunteer time. Then I went to a shoot and looked a little closer with the help of a guy behind the counter. I think the data IS all there. How to get it out and available is not completely clear to me yet, but with just one piece of software - 3S, it is doable with a little extra work.
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Eric- Yes, for $1,000 my club could get the equipment to do this quickly. We now charge $12 per hundred to shoot registered birds. If we raised our price by $1 / 100 we could generate the $1,000 in a year. But, what about the cost/benefit of doing this. Keep in mind that our total labor costs for operating shoots for the last 25 years is $0.00.

    Also, most of the larger shoots I help with use Bob S. program. It is an excellent program but it operates on MSdos. How would this fit in?

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    Bob,

    I agree with you on the 'mandate' part of 9.3 suggestion. The ATA shouldn't require clubs to do the thing that 9.3 suggests. Would it be great if all clubs would voluntarily sumbit info the ATA to post on their site, or if the ATA could create a portal for them to do it themselves? Wait, maybe they have that already. Is that what the MY ATA link is?

    Bob, your comment about not telling me I'm wrong is confusing. Are you saying that you think I'm wrong by don't want to say it? That's not like you, so I'm guessing you mean that you're not sure I'm right about something, but don't have anything to back up your thoughts. No problem, I'm wrong a lot and will be the first to admit it. Just curious, which part of my first post do you think could be wrong? That the data is probably more than 5 years old? Could be, but it's atleast 3 years because that's when the page was added to the website.

    Anyway, I want to shoot at Pat's club. Sounds like my kind of club. Everyone helps and reaps the rewards of their efforts through low cost targets.
     
  16. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    Every club has to make their own decision based on need. At my club all 3 groups (trap, skeet & sc)use the computer for scoring, payouts, etc. We hold 48+ registered shoots a year combined, plus we keep all the membership lists and create our club news letter and flyers in the computer. Without the computer we would be inundated with mounds of paperwork.

    Your $12/100 for registered seems almost unbeliveable in this day and age as we charge $32/100.

    Eric
     
  17. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Tom I am saying you are not wrong in your assessment of the shooter profile statistics.

    I also fully understand where pat is coming from on the computer costs and it effects on target costs. The club that I have been involved with for the last 12 years or so has just started using the computer. How it goes cost wise remains to be seen.

    Bob Lawless
     
  18. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Agreed. When it comes to paying for it, using paper and pencil ain't all bad.

    However, with all due respect fellas, I think you are underestimating your options. Check out the Website Address above. The guy from the Idaho state shoot took me up on my offer to work with his files. I sent them to David and he converted them to pdfs, dropped them on his site and created a jump for you and I to use. That was for the 3S software package. I believe there's a simple solution for Pat's DOS based piece as well. Is David interested in working with this? Sure. Maybe not at the local level, but he might be. It brings viewers to his site and that's good for ts.com. Viewing data is an old problem on the web. There are easy solutions.

    You don't have to re-enter all the data.

    There may be a pdf printer driver out there that pushes the conversion to the local level - but maybe that's not desirable. More work locally isn't what we're after.

    I'll work on it some more...
     
  19. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Joe- The MS DOS program is not mine. It is used at many large shoots, at least two Satellite Grands and the Grand American. I will be using it again next week for the Southern Zone shoot.

    Pat Ireland
     
  20. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Pat,

    We need files if you're going to post scores/winners. Two options:

    1) Files native to the program itself. This is where the shooter names and scores per round are stored. These can often be converted to something for the internet. I can research.

    2) Printing a report to a file is one of the oldest techniques around for getting data out. This goes back to MS-DOS days. Usually yields a text file which is easily displayable.

    With big names like that, there are surely plenty of solutions already in place. What actually happens is probably dependent on the folks doing the work.

    If you want to persue this further, my email address is joemkuhn at gmail dot com.
     
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