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Illegal Targets

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by tjwatc, Sep 28, 2008.

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  1. tjwatc

    tjwatc TS Member

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    Does anyone else have trouble identifying illegal targets, especially hard lefts and rights. I am so focused on spotting and hitting the targets, I have shot at and missed illegal targets. Of course, after I shoot at them I realize that they were illegal.

    Any suggestions ... Why can't the squad call out illegal target, much like broken bird and help a guy out, regardless if you hit or miss it.
     
  2. Beretta687EELL

    Beretta687EELL Well-Known Member

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    Illegal or not ... shoot at it, you bought it. Bill Malcolm
     
  3. Little Dog

    Little Dog TS Member

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    They could, but it wouldn't be very smart of them.
     
  4. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    tjwatc you asked " Why can't the squad call out illegal target, much like broken bird and help a guy out, regardless if you hit or miss it."

    The rule as written in the rule book " 8. When an “illegal” target is thrown, which is a target that is not within the prescribed angle or height limits for single target shooting, or what is known as a “flipper” or “freak” target is thrown, which is a target that may have slipped out of the carrier of the trap or one not properly placed on the trap, provided the contestant does not fire at it. If the contestant fires, the result must be scored."

    Bob Lawless
     
  5. hoggy

    hoggy TS Member

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    He has a good point though. The score keepers call out no bird when a broken bird is thrown shot at or not. Maybe the rules should be changed to where the scorer could call no bird on illegal targets. Too many times a shooter is so intense on shooting a target they cannot lay off of it. I know I have done so in the past. Really what's the difference. No bird should be broken or illegal as far as I can tell and the rules should be changed.
     
  6. DENNISMASTROLIA1

    DENNISMASTROLIA1 Active Member

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    The traps should be set properly to avoid the mess in the first place.Too many clubs have no idea what a proper target presentation is.The shooter aka the paying consumer must demand good targets or stay away from these clubs until they "get it".As for the scorer calling for an illegal target--not a good idea as some scorers are kids working on weekends and they don't have the knowledge.Just my HO.
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Most of us have shot wide targets. They may actually not be illegal but clearly wider than the other targets. When we do that, it is our mistake and we should remain responsible for our mistakes.

    It is very difficult for a scorer or another squad member to distinguish between an unusually wide target and an illegal target. Calling these targets "no target" would cause great confusion. A "no target" must be shot over even if it is broken by the shooter.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Maybe we should follow the practices used by other sports. Maybe a trap field should have foul lines like a baseball field. You wouldn't expect the umpire to call a foul ball without having a white line on the ground or a foul pole to be guided by. HMB
     
  9. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Unfortunately a multitude of reasons exist to create an illegal target even though normal target presentation is good. I have shot on many many traps in my life that had pullers who would call illegal or no target. But most pullers of today do not have the experience to recognize these varied flight paths. Also many squadmates don't either. Then reaction time would enter into the scenario and most likely the shooter would execute the shot somewhat while others were screaming further negating the chance to break the target.
     
  10. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    tjwatc:

    IMO many shooters find it difficult to identify illegally wide targets.

    Diagram #2 on page 57 of the ATA Rules and Regs book describes two areas. The first is defined as the "Most Desirable Area in Which to Throw a Target". It covers an arc of 34 degress which at 50 yards is 90 feet wide.

    The second area is the "Area of Legitimate Target". It covers an arc of 54 degrees which is approximately 143 feet wide at 50 yards. This second area of legitimate (aka, legal) targets is nearly 60% wider than the "most desirable" target area. I believe many (if not most) targets turned down as 'illegal' are in fact, within the "Area of Legitimate Target" and thus legal. However, in the absence of foul lines, like HMB mentioned, what constitues illegally wide remains a matter of opinion.

    sissy

    edited addition: Perhaps a better baseball analogy is the strike zone. While clearly defined, umpires have been known to take liberties. In the end a pitch is a strike or a ball only when the ump declares it to be so.
     
  11. BRGII

    BRGII TS Member

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    Most illegal targets ie wide angle targets are caused on hand set traps. The target isn't placed on the arm correctly by the setter. This usually happens after some idiot calls to fast after the previous shooter and burns the the setters fingers. I used to set trap years ago, and if some idiot burnt my fingers, I would wait for the call previous to him and give him a few broken (tops out) or not place them against the arm, ergo wide target. BRGII
     
  12. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    At one of the clubs I shoot, a couple of the Pat Traps will throw an obviously wide right that is low and usually only goes about 35 yards. Sometimes, depending on the post, it is very hard to lay off these dead ducks. These targets are substantially further outside the bounderies of the game than a target that is flying well but happens to come out with chips from a previous, broken target. As such, if those can be ruled "no target", I don't see why an obviously bad target can't likewise be ruled as such.


    I understand that these dead ducks are caused by a worn brush. Is this true?
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    JBrooks- A worn brush can definitely cause a PAT Trap to occasionally throw a wide angle.

    The wide targets can be called a no target, unless you shoot at it.

    HMB- Foul lines wouldn't be much help. Proper angles are determined as the bird leaves the house, not where it lands. The birds do curve a few feet to the right during their flight.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. Rebsmith

    Rebsmith Member

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    The occasional extremely wide and short right target from a Pat Trap may be a worn brush but if it's a "G" series trap, the turret is out of sync with the target elevator. When the turret drops the target after the elevator goes down, the target is out of position on the throw arm.

    Jere Cossaboom
     
  15. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    As was illustrated above, even the best maintained equipment is not infallible. I would surmise the issue comes up most often when an "illegal" target is missed, rarely if broken - although as mentioned earlier, both situations call for a re-thrown bird.

    Can we all agree that we should avoid giving the option of "instant-replay" to the pullers?! (lol)

    Jay
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Jay? Would you like to check that?

    Neil
     
  17. John Thompson

    John Thompson TS Member

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    When I break 100/99/98 I turn them down. When I break 93/92/etc I shoot at them
     
  18. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

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    I broke one at Bridgeport Rod and gun one day. I was on post 4 and it was a hard right low and it was so wide I almost stopped because I thought I was gonna blast the guy on post 5. After the round I was laughing about it and the scorer said if you turned that one down I would have called it illegal. I've never turned down a target unless it was in pieces. I'm one of those shooters that once I am mounted and in the zone I'm shootin anything that flys out.
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    widomaker you said "I'm one of those shooters that once I am mounted and in the zone I'm shootin anything that flys out."

    I personally feel that this statement is just the reason that if you shoot and miss it is a lost target. When a shooter in om the line he needs to be in control of what he is shooting at. If for no other reason than safety. The indiscriminate discharge of a gun just because a target is in the air is not a safe practice. Not to mention poor mental control.

    No flame just my opinion on the intent of the rule.

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

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    Ok Bob now your getting a bit carried away here. I'm perfectly aware of the rule and know that if I missed the target its lost. I have been and always will be safety first and would never shoot indiscriminately at anything. I've shot 5000 targets now not a lot by most standards but enough to know when to shoot when not to shoot and how to act on the line and how to not act with any squad I'm shooting with. I'm quiet don't move and am very respectful of the other shooters on my squad. As far as control of my shotgun I have never shot a broken target yet in doubles and as of right now I spot shoot or trap the first target out . Not to say it wont ever happen but up until now it has not and I've seen lots of better shooters then me shoot them. And more than once in a single round. I have never been talked to about gun safety by anyone on a squad I have been on shoot management or anyone watching from the first time I stepped up to the line to this very day. This is not by any means my first rodeo. I have been shooting pistols with my father who taught me gun safety and BTW is a retired NYPD badge # 1431 since I was 9 years old and have 2 expert medals from the US Navy for shooting the match 45 pistols. I was new to shotguns and trap granted but I am very careful none the less. If you got the wrong impression I'm sorry about that.

    And thats my opinion.

    Martin Milano ATA # 0765881
     
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