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IL State Team selection process PROPOSED CHANGES

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by NintyT, Mar 3, 2009.

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  1. NintyT

    NintyT Member

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    I recently received this letter in the mail which proposes changes to the way that the IL State Team members are selected. I thought that all should see this and have the opportunity to voice an opinion. For those unfamiliar with the current proceedures, I'll use our men's team as an example. Target requirements are, 2,500 sgls, 2,000 hdcp, 1500 dbls. You must shoot the championship targets at the state shoot, and the championship targets at one of the 3 zone shoots. Having met these qualifications, the top 10 shooters, in order of their Overall Average, are assigned to the team in order of their average.

    Here's the letter:


    "Dear .....

    The ITA Board of Directors is considering changing the way we determine the order of ranking of each team. We are contacting you because you are the shooters who will be most affected by these changes. There are two reasons for these changes:
    1) we want to encourage people to shoot as many targes as possible
    2) we would like people to shoot more targets here in Illinois

    First off, the way a person makes the team will not change. Shoot your minimums, participate in both a zone and the state shoot and have a high enough overall average and you are on the team.

    These proposals would only potentially change who would be the captain, second, third, ets. In a nutshell, we would create a point system. Whoever earned the most points would be captain, second most points would be second, etc. Here are some of the different ideas about how the points are earned:

    (sorry, I was unable to reproduce the graph that was shown) The graph showed that the highest Overall Average would get 5 points. The point value decreases by 1/2 point, for each place, down to 10th, which gets 1/2 point.)


    Points for Total Amount of Targets Shot:
    For each group of 500 targets shot above the minimums, you would receive one half point. Example: A shooter shoots 5200 singles, 4800 handicap and 3600 doubles:

    (Again I could not reproduce the graph, but if this shooter shot 5200 singles targes, he would recieve 1/2 point for each group of 500 above the required 2500. In this case the shooter would get 2 1/2 points added. For the 4800 hdcp, an additional 2 1/2 points, and for the 3600 dbls he would get another 2 points. In total he would get 7 extra points.)

    Points for Targets Shot in Illinois:
    For each group of 500 targets shot in Illinois, the shooter would received one half point.

    (Once again, I could not reproduce the graph. This shooter would receive an additional 1/2 point for each group of 500 targets shot in Illinois. The example in the graph gave the shooter 3 1/2 points)


    Since we would be using a point system like the ATA, shooters would have to send their shoot records to the state team committee to be considered for the Illinois State team. This would mean there would be a period of time for educating all Illinois shooters about the need to apply for consideration to make the team. We are thinking about changing to this system in the 2011 target year so that everone will have time to become familiar with it.

    Since you will be the most affected by these changes, we would like to get your feedback. What do you like and/or dislike about these ideas? Are there any changes you would suggest?

    Remember the goal is to encourage more shooting in Illinois. By getting your imput, and the imput of other shooters in Illinois, we can create the best system possible. Contact me or any other ITA Board Member with your ideas before May 31, 2009.

    Sincerely,
    Bill Duncan, ISTA Southern Zone Director"
    (phone number which I have withheld)


    I have my own thoughts, but in a nutshell, I'm greatly opposed. Just thought everyone should see this and I'd love to hear your opinions. Steve Johnson
     
  2. missed

    missed Member

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    Leave it alone. Why reward a person for just getting targets? Many shooters spend time in other states and should not get penalized for this or shooting across state lines when you are in that situation. This may be a burden on some that are in areas where the shoots are few and going to another state gives them the opportunity to get targets in to meet the min. requirements.
     
  3. sallyjane

    sallyjane TS Member

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    Why would the system need to be changed? There must be some reason. Doesn't make sense to me if you shoot 50K targets in Illinois you out point someone who has a higher combined ave. Maybe you could also get points for having the most expensive shotgun purchased from an Illinois gun dealer. I guess this goes along with the new national idea for some that we need change.(for no reason)
     
  4. jagrdawger

    jagrdawger TS Member

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    Sounds like the rich guy who shoots the most targets gets "elected" to the top spot.

    Isn't that how all politics work in Illinois?
     
  5. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    An All-State team criteria needs to stay based on high averages. If a state wants a separate team awards system for target attainment, that state should come up with a separate attainment recognition process. Some states already do that.

    'Dumbing down' an original All-State team to include target attainment,,is about the quickest way to make a high level shooter lose interest. I also believe high attainment should be recognized.
     
  6. RLC323

    RLC323 Member

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    My take on this is that the individuals who make the team by the current standards as far as requirements and average will not change. The points system will only determine the placement on the team of those who qualify by the current standard. So no deserving shooter with the average and requrements met will be left out. But someone who shoots a ton of targets could be named captain above a shooter with the highest average.

    I see the point of trying to encourage shooters to participate more in the state, but this idea is realy only encouraging increased participation among a possible field of less than 50 shooters who attempt to make the team each year. While I applaud Mr Duncan for his attempt at increasing targets shot here in the state, I am afraid it will not change participation much, and it may create a huge headache for those who must compile the statistics. Beyond that, if a working man like Steve held the high average in the state and the captain spot was taken by someone who travels the "circuit" and shoots constantly and was given extra points just because he shoots more, I would be upset to say the least! Ron Cox Jr.
     
  7. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    And, for the most part, requiring participation of X number of targets in the state really doesn't help. Indiana used to require this, until we started having guys that could have made the All-American team not make the All-State Team (it never happened, but it came close). It befuddles me why you have to shoot a zone or state shoot. If some guy (or gal) could not make it to a zone for some reason (let's say family, perhaps) and then couldn't make the state shoot (work sends him out of the country for the week) and then proceeds to win 3-5 trophies at the grand and makes some neighboring state shoots and wins there, if this person had a high enough average & enough targets, should he or she be shunned from the state team? The state should be PROUD to have them on the team.

    Why try to be exclusionary? Minimum targets are needed to establish an average. Requiring X number of in-state targets really serves no purpose.

    John
     
  8. NintyT

    NintyT Member

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    I appreciate the comments here, and hope more post theirs. Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. I have made our state team for several years, but only once did I make captain. I suppose I should be looking at this as my opportunity to take the top spot from somebody that shoots better than I do most of the time. Somehow, that just doesn't appeal to me.

    As mentioned above by Gary, I suspect the motive is something else.

    Steve Johnson
     
  9. Vickie

    Vickie Member

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    Several years ago, California adopted a "points" system to determine our State team members. It only lasted a year or maybe two. The Director in charge of calculating the points had such a mess, they voted to drop that method.

    We also wanted to encourage more shooting in state, so they tried using just the targets that were shot in California. That didn't work either. They had the shooters send in an application, that didn't work either.

    We now have minimum target requirements, you must shoot at 5 clubs in the state, and at least 2 of the 3 zones. The teams are picked from those meeting the target requirements, club and zone requirements and then placed in order by the shooters all around average. I think next year they are going to require that we shoot 100 targets in each discipline in two of the three zones.

    I don't think that the teams really changed in any of the years that we added more requirements or conditions. High all around average, and target minimums seems to work the best here in California.

    Vickie
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Most states simply use an average, of the three averages in singles, handicap and doubles. They do this, even though averaging averages is something that makes statisticians cringe, simply because it is easy. The current widespread system could actually discourage shooting more than the minimum targets, especially in handicap and doubles events. A shooter with a high average in handicap will possibly skip a handicap event near the end of the year. This is especially true if the shooting conditions are poor.

    North Carolina uses a point system based on wins at shoots within the state. This is a good system but it requires a lot of work by one individual.

    I do have some doubt about giving points for the number of targets shot in state. The state association could accomplish their objective by requiring a minimum number of targets shot in state but now awarding points for the targets shot.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. backfenceata

    backfenceata TS Member

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    North Carolina uses a point system based on wins at shoots within the state. This is a good system but it requires a lot of work by one individual. (from Pats post)

    To our ISTA leaders, PLEASE look into Pats, states system.

    If you are serious about increasing target count, then you must stear away from averages(which by its very nature incourages fair weather shooters, seeking out only the clubs lucky enough to have great backgrounds and lots of MARATHONS)


    Another way may be to use the average of a shooters BEST 2500,2000 and 1500. this way a shooter would not have to be afraid to shoot a new club, or too early or late in the season(weather and light conditions)

    As a side bar---In IL any change will probably not change our state team as these guys are the best in the state, but a change may just help shoot attendance!!!

    Kirk Sanders (an ISTA weekend warrior)
     
  12. JimmyP

    JimmyP TS Member

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    Texas has a system that I thinks works well. You take your state score and your best 2 shoots from the zones and send them in. The high average gets Captain and goes from there. It encourages Zone attendance because you only get to use your two best scores from all the Zones you have shot. At the end of the year, if you want to be considered, you send in your application. All that has to be done is scores and math checked and you have your team. Seems to work real well here.

    Jimmy
     
  13. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    I was on the Illinois state team 16 times. Although I don't believe that all those years I was among the top ten shooters in the state. There were others that were better but didn't shoot the required targets.

    I did, however, do what was required to make the team. At one time some board members tried to make changes to the requirements that would require more targets shot in Illinois to make the team. I thought that was a bad idea then and I think the new proposal is also bad for the same reasons.

    1.) It restricts those of our shooters who are good enough to make the All American team and have to shoot out of state to make the ATA requirements. 2.) It's sort of a requiremental blackmail and could make state team membership less accurate. 3.) Many times the board has made mistakes about who was on the team, even as simple as it is to use mear averages.

    I like a system based on wins but not just a tool to make people shoot more targets.

    Barry Roach ATA #17-50780
     
  14. zinger

    zinger Member

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    So,is your state team made up of the best shooters in the state? or is the team selected by who shoots what, when and where? I couldn't shoot our state shoot championship targets for 2 years, but had more than enough targets to qualify if shooting those 400 targets weren't a requirement. I'm not an IL resident, but am against all these "rules" to be on a state team.
     
  15. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Zinger, They're have to be qualifiers. I just don't think the qualifiers should be used as a promotional device to increase target participation statewide.
     
  16. JimmyP

    JimmyP TS Member

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    Zinger, Do I understand right? You want to be on your state team but do not want to have to shoot the State Shoot? It seems to me, no offense intended, that you want to be chosen on the shoots of your choice. No level playing field there. It should be graded on competetion of like pressure in my opinion. I don't have a dog in this fight but I really don't understand why it is such a problem. Again, I don't mean to offend anyone.

    Jimmy
     
  17. zinger

    zinger Member

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    I'm just saying that if I were to shoot 10,000 targets anywhere in the country (and I'm not talking little shoots), and have a composite average that is the highest in my state, would that not mean that I am one of the top shooters in my state? Do you not want the state team to represent the top shooters in the state? Or, am I to believe state teams are only made up of those shooters who show up and shoot certain targets?
     
  18. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    exactly my point plinker. Let's say you are harlan Campbell and you move to Illinois. You are rockin' and rollin' at the Illinois State Shoot, winning 6 trophies Tues-Fri. Then there is a death in your family and you need to go home ASAP. You cannot shoot the "championship weekend" of the State Shoot, but rebound from this devastating event and continue to shoot well in July & August and clinch the captancy of the ATA Men's All-American team. Would the state keep you off the All-State team when you have argubably proven that you are the best shooter IN THE NATION?

    To me, requiring people to shoot certain events is penalistic. If you want to do it on wins and have someone that wants to go through the headaches of compiling the data, fine. That is a good barometer (as long as you don't do something silly like award 100 points for winning your state singles championship and 90 points for winning the CTC beacuse it wasn't in your state -- not a good example for IL, but you get my drift). Heck, its tough enough to compile the data when you are dealing with just the averages.

    Again, it would be very feasible for a really good shooter to not fulfill the IL requirements as it stands and not make the team. If we did the same in Indiana -- we have two of our zones on Memorial Day Weekend - the same weekend as the GLG -- leaving only one other weekend to shoot a zone shoot, we could have a whole mess of guys not make the team. It just doesn't make sense to me.
     
  19. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Bill, When is our Southern Zone shoot?
     
  20. zinger

    zinger Member

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    Jeff understands what I'm saying. I missed my state championship targets due to family emergency. I was penalized from aquiring my .25 pin and hat.lol
     
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