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Idiots who buy that intelligent design nonsense

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by wireguy, Jun 18, 2013.

  1. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    http://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2013/06/18/why-some-scientists-embrace-the-multiverse-n1621935/page/full


    Why Some Scientists Embrace the 'Multiverse'
    Dennis Prager | Jun 18, 2013


    Last week, in Nice, France, I was privileged to participate, along with 30 scholars, mostly scientists and mathematicians, in a conference on the question of whether the universe was designed, or at least fine-tuned, to make life, especially intelligent life. Participants -- from Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Berkeley and Columbia among other American and European universities -- included believers in God, agonistics and atheists.

    But it was clear that the scientific consensus was that, at the very least, the universe is exquisitely fine-tuned to allow for the possibility of life. It appears that we live in a "Goldilocks Universe," in which both the arrangement of matter at the cosmic beginning and the values of various physical parameters -- such as the speed of light, the strength of gravitational attraction and the expansion rate of the universe - are just right. And unless one is frightened of the term, it also appears the universe is designed for biogenesis and human life.

    Regarding fine-tuning, one could write a book just citing the arguments for it made by some of the most distinguished scientists in the world. Here is just a tiny sample found on the website of physicist Gerald Schroeder, holder of bachelor's, master's and doctorate degrees from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he later taught physics.

    Michael Turner, astrophysicist at the University of Chicago and Fermilab: "The precision is as if one could throw a dart across the entire universe and hit a bulls eye one millimeter in diameter on the other side."

    Paul Davies, professor of theoretical physics at Adelaide University: "The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off even slightly."

    Roger Penrose, the Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford, writes that the likelihood of the universe having usable energy (low entropy) at its creation is "one part out of ten to the power of ten to the power of 123." That is "a million billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion billion zeros."

    Steven Weinberg, recipient of the Nobel Prize in Physics, and an anti-religious agnostic, notes that "the existence of life of any kind seems to require a cancellation between different contributions to the vacuum energy, accurate to about 120 decimal places. This means that if the energies of the Big Bang were, in arbitrary units, not: 10000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000, but instead: 1000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000001, there would be no life of any sort in the entire universe."

    Unless one is a closed-minded atheist (there are open-minded atheists), it is not valid on a purely scientific basis to deny that the universe is improbably fine-tuned to create life, let alone intelligent life. Additionally, it is atheistic dogma, not science, to dismiss design as unscientific. The argument that science cannot suggest that intelligence comes from intelligence or design from an intelligent designer is simply a tautology. It is dogma masquerading as science.

    And now, many atheist scientists have inadvertently provided logical proof of this.

    They have put forward the notion of a multiverse -- the idea that there are many, perhaps an infinite number of, other universes. This idea renders meaningless the fine-tuning and, of course, the design arguments. After all, with an infinite number of universes, a universe with parameters friendly to intelligent life is more likely to arise somewhere by chance.

    But there is not a shred of evidence of the existence of these other universes. Nor could there be since contact with another universe is impossible.

    Therefore, only one conclusion can be drawn: The fact that atheists have resorted to the multiverse argument constitutes a tacit admission that they have lost the argument about design in this universe. The evidence in this universe for design -- or, if you will, the fine-tuning that cannot be explained by chance or by "enough time" -- is so compelling that the only way around it is to suggest that our universe is only one of an infinite number of universes.

    Honest atheists -- scientists and lay people -- must now acknowledge that science itself argues overwhelmingly for a Designing Intelligence. And honest believers must acknowledge that the existence of a Designing Intelligence is not necessarily the same as the existence of benevolent God.

    To posit the existence of a Creator requires only reason. To posit the existence of a good God requires faith.
     
  2. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    If he is super technological then he inhabits the same universe we inhabit. How does one create one's own universe then live in it?
     
  3. R.Kipling

    R.Kipling Well-Known Member

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    Seems more likely, both supertechnological and supernatural? At least it solves the universe problem.

    Kip
     
  4. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    I think Kip has nailed it. Supernatural in that he is outside the universe rather than a part of the universe, and super technological in that he could design and build the thing to such exacting proportions.

    What do you think coyote1234?
     
  5. WS-1

    WS-1 Banned User Banned

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    "There are eight million stories in the naked city."

    The infinity of time and space creates infinite possibilities. In the Land of Forever, there are neither time clocks nor odometers.
     
  6. darr

    darr Well-Known Member

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    Without God as a principle this world we live in would be a 1 in 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 chance of being. Let's see a 1 in 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 of some amazing explosion or God. I'll take God. That has always been my argument. If one can look at this world and this universe and mathematics and physics and believe that there wasn't a plan then that person must be blind.

    There might be an argument over which God. I personally believe in God, the father of Jesus. But I don't think it hard to fathom that there were some blue prints drawn by someone other than man.

    By the way I realize I left out some zeros. I didn't think the exact number relevant. It's an matter of faith.


    Darr
     
  7. Avatar

    Avatar TS Member

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    Interesting subject, and good that people here can debate it with tolerance. But, leaving personal beliefs and faith out of it, and trying to view this issue dispassionately, logic alone seems to dictate several things:

    --it is impossible to prove that God (in some sense) does not exist;

    --since God's existence cannot be disproved, God may exist;

    --God's existence would provide an explanation for the existence of an improbable universe;

    --the fact that we exist and our existence requires an improbable universe does not prove God's existence, since even the improbable can, by definition, happen, even without resort to multiverse theory or other theories including ones that will likely be trotted out in years to come.

    So, in the end, maybe it has to come down to a question of faith.
     
  8. Trail

    Trail Active Member

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    I'm a creationist...and a very devote Christian. Can someone tell me what this has to do with trap?

    C'mon guys.

    Trail.
     
  9. WS-1

    WS-1 Banned User Banned

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    Try Olympic Bunker. That'll explain everything.
     
  10. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    "tell me what this has to do with trap?"

    Trail, Had not God given the "intelligence" to someone, we would not have gunpowder, lead shot, and tubes to send it down in and let alone a Clay Pigeon to try and hit!!

    Hope that answers your question!

    Man only has "knowledge" God gives "Wisdom".
     
  11. Avatar

    Avatar TS Member

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    I like the Olympic Bunker theory.
     
  12. brownk80

    brownk80 Member

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    Interesting but it still begs the question: 7 1/2's or 8's?
     
  13. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    The presence of order indicates an intelligence of some sort.

    As we came out of the caves we began to recognize the way things are grouped and the order in their groups.

    Later on we deduced the Periodic Table of the elements, found out about gravity, and made other discoveries. Order was present everywhere.

    This didn't happen by accident.

    You don't have to believe in a Santa Claus God or a boogeyman devil to recognize that Something keeps it all going and that there are rules.

    HM
     
  14. Drew Hause

    Drew Hause Well-Known Member

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    Today's reading in "Voices From The Past, Puritan Devotional Readings" (highly recommended and available from The Banner of Truth Trust) is from Thomas Mallery, Puritan Sermons 1659-1689

    His eternal Godhead is manifest in the works of creation (Romans 1:20). The knowledge of God in creation, however, is not able to restrain the vain imaginations and idolatrous conceptions of God that lie in men's hearts. The clearest, sweetest, and most comfortable manifestation of God to us is made only in Jesus Christ, who is 'the image of the invisible God' (Colossians 1:15). No man ever can understand anything of God truly except in and by Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 6:16).
     
  15. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    There is a popular modern fallacy (lie intended to deceive) that says that given enough time anything is possible. That lie is injected into the popular culture through the saying that give enough monkeys enough time and typewriters and they will write all the great works ever written. The truth is you can give all the monkeys there are numbers to define all the time and typewriters you want and they will never get close to writing even one of the great works.

    There is a number that mathematicians who work with odds use that defines a point beyond which it is a mathematical certainty that something cannot happen by random chance. I can't remember the exact word that is used to define that number but it is roughly analogous to nonsense. In other words, it is nonsensical to believe that at this level of odds that something could happen through random chance. That number is surprisingly small. I wish I could remember what that number is but I was shocked at how small it is. After I thought about it though that low thresh hold actually made a lot of sense, at least to me. Once one crosses that thresh hold number the odds of something happening through random chance is zero. Not close to zero, absolute zero.

    Those who posit that given enough time anything can happen are outside real scientific construct. Stop and think about it. It doesn't matter how many monkeys or how much time, each of those monkeys is operating in a realm of pure random chance. How many monkeys would it take, and how much time, when the odds of even one page getting written are actually near zero. Now extend those odds on out to even one great work being repeated. Nonsense.
     
  16. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Wireguy I think they have proved the first part of the theory you posted about monkeys and typewriters

    Just read the stuff they pass in congress, it had to be monkeys that wrote most of the stuff they enact

    I guess it is more like monkeys voting on it
     
  17. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    <i> Pinto: Our whole solar system could be like one tiny atom under the fingernail of some other giant being. Oh. Oh. This is too much! That means one tiny atom under my fingernail could be . . .

    Jennings: One tiny universe.
    </i>
     
  18. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Just look what happend when those damn dirty apes learned to write!

    BTW the answer is out there -43.
     
  19. batman1004

    batman1004 TS Member

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    I think bill maher has it right!!!!!!!!jesus i mean hay suse
     
  20. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    At some point in time physics breaks down. At that point meta-physics takes over Is the maker of this vast universe good of bad? Maybe it's (we) his hobby, and he gave each of us a little of himself, a piece of creativity. Now it's up to us to do something with his gift. Earth may be our playpen, the solar system our college, and the universe our destiny. One does not have to attend church every Sunday to understand this concept.