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I just saw a news special about Pat Tillman

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by kolared person, May 9, 2008.

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  1. kolared person

    kolared person TS Member

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    Pat Tillman"s wife is forcing all these investigations about he husband. After spending 8 months in the field in Vietnm, I got a job as a company clerk. Many soldiers died from friendly fire, from suicide and by doing things like cleaning a loaded rifle. When a soldier died we sent a form letter to his family. The letters always contained words of heroism describing their sons death.In the Army:s eyes all the soldiers were combat heros. They wanted his family to think so too even if it was not the whole truth. What are my fellow veterans thoughts on this matter?
     
  2. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    When your kid gets killed, you just want to know the plain truth...not trumped-up bullshit designed to cover the tails of officer muckety-mucks and protect the political capital of their commanders.


    I'm not a veteran, so maybe I'm not qualified to speak...but if you ain't had a kid killed, perhaps you need to stfu also?


    respectfully submitted,
     
  3. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Dead is dead. Does it really matter how?? Is there any good reason?? A combat zone is a deadly area, shit happens both good and bad. Search all you want but at the end of the day your husband, father, son, brother or friend is still dead and nothing will bring them back. Accept it and try to move on.

    Don
     
  4. omgb

    omgb Well-Known Member

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    I am a vet, '74-81. I was not in combat but I was the NCOIC of my WX section and had to assist the commander in writing letters home to parents twice when airmen assigned to our unit died unexpectedly. In each case we withheld the negative things such as "your son was driving drunk" or "your son was using drugs at the time of his death" and instead deliberately painted a more positive picture of his service. I believed then this was a positive thing to do for the parents. Likewise, we went through all of their personal belongings before sending them home so as not to send something that would be disturbing or disheartening.

    Thirty years later I agree with the searching of the belongings policy but believe we should have been more forthcoming in our letters home. Having lost loved ones over the years I can more completely understand the desire to know fully what actually happened. People need some sense of control or at least, they need to be able to put themselves closer, no matter how figuratively, to their loved one at the moment of death. Some how and for some reason, it just makes it easier to accept if one knows the truth, or at least it seems that way to me. There are about as many ways to react to the tragic loss of a loved one as there are to die ... people are just too complex to reduce to a simple behavior model.

    In Tillman's case, the Army needed to be more forthright. There was no negligence as far as I can tell. Geez, in the rush of combat you have got to figure mistakes will be made. When one reads the full report of his death, it becomes easy to see how this could have happened. If the Army had just been open with the whole thing the family would feel a lot less hurt. Now not only do they have to deal with Tillman's loss, but they also feel betrayed by the Army they entrusted his life too. The former is a sad, sad trauma but something that is in the end, inevitable for all of us and thus ultimately "natural". The latter is nasty and smacks of a total disregard for the life of the soldier and the people who loved him and just reeks of CYA and political cover up. Even more so due to the unpopularity of this war and this administration. I think the Army and the Sec of Def owe this family and the people of the US an apology and they need to show some commitment to preventing this from happening again. I believe the Army meant well but as one person put it, the biggest threat to democracy is secrecy. When we send our sons and daughters to fight for democracy we must not do that which pulls the rug out from under it.
     
  5. SARGE75X

    SARGE75X Member

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    I can understand why the Army did what it did but I don't understand the awarding of a Silver Star.
     
  6. 5spd

    5spd TS Member

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    Sarge....I agree with your thought. I do not think he deserved a medal also. I do not think the Army should of trumped up a story about what happened, then back track on everything that went wrong. OMGB said it well also. I have 2 boys in the Army & I would want to know the actual truth, not some BS story full of holes & non truth.

    Both my boys have been in many battles/firefights in Iraq & Afganistan and from 1st hand knowledge things can & do get very mixed up & fast. They have both been fired upon by our own forces, caught in cross fires, killed others (enemy), seen their own squad members get killed, but very lucky to come out alive from it all. The truth no matter how hard it is to admit to is what the families deserves.
     
  7. jakearoo

    jakearoo Active Member

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    I saw Pat Tillman's wife on TV last evening. According to her, the truth is the lies about his death came from the very top. Rumsfield was aware of Tillman and followed his service. And then gave quite specific orders about how his death was to be handled. Apparently, he felt that a "war hero" was what America needed for propaganda reasons at that time not just a story about a brave and honorable young man who died in an unfortunate accident.

    Course, the "truth" has always been maluble with the folks who got us into this lovely war. The ends justify the means. Jake
     
  8. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Tillman was high profile. Perfect grist for the propeaganda mill. His death provided some sleazeballs an opportunity to make political hay.

    The fact that it backfired is mere chance and now it's hard for the higher ups to deal with, especially the ones who had no part of the BS job in the first place.

    I personally feel he is worth a medal for forsaking the limelight of Pro Ball to serve his country.

    HM
     
  9. concordefamily

    concordefamily Member

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    BIGDON is right. Nothing can be done about it now. Does his wife want charges brought against whoever is resonsible for his death? While it is tragic and sad that he died it is just as tragic as every other life that has been lost. Just because he was a former NFL player does not mean he was any more important than anyone else who has ever died serving his or hers country.
     
  10. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    His death was no more or less meaningless than any other. the important thing is why did he choose that direction?

    Leaving a sure life of security and possible fame sets him apart from the ghetto boy who joined because he needed a meal ticket.

    I'm sure most of us can figure that out.

    HM
     
  11. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    In the last several wars there were countless"friendly fire" incidents. In WW II there were massive causualties in a PRACTICE invasion drill for D Day.Because the operation was a closely guared secrect, there was a complete non communication and the troops practicing for the invasion were fired upon by our own forces, killing great numbers of them. The "INSTANT" news generated today makes the friendly fire incidents stand out, but in fact communication between forces and units is much better than it was in the past, making it less likely(but not impossible). Wanting to "BURN" somebody for Tillman's death WON'T BRING HIM BACK! As far as I' m concerened he died a Hero(like other brave men and women) who die in the service of this country.
     
  12. bobby ward

    bobby ward Member

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    Ladies and Gentlemen,

    I am not a veteran but was raised and taught by my father, a WW II veteran to always respect and HONOR the service of every man and woman who wears the uniform of the United States Armed Services. That said, I have followed the postings here and somewhat like religion and politics there is passionate debate from both sides of the issue. Can there be a winner?

    First and foremost, Pat Tillman was an American Soldier serving our country and was killed in action. His death is no more and certainly NO LESS significant than any other brave man or woman who has "given all" in defense of this nation. To glorify his service and sacrifice above others who died in combat is wrong. He should simply but reverently be remembered as one of our best who fought for freedom and gave his life in that endeavor.

    The reporting of his death is another matter. Certainly it seems to have been confirmed he was killed by friendly fire. It always seems a little more tragic when we hear that term related to the death of one of our own. The sad part of this and the part that MUST NOT die until the full truth is known and those responsible are punished, is the fact that it was intentionally reported falsely. That folks, whether you like it or agree with it, is a slap in the face and a degradation to EVERY man and woman who ever wore the uniform. We don't like hearing things like this and that our government is capable of such horrific acts, but it does happen and when it does we owe to those in service of our country to offer the truth and nothing but the truth. When the truth is lost or intentionally buried, we all lose.

    In humble respect, honor and admiration to all veterans past, present and future.

    Bobby Ward
     
  13. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    Bobby well stated! Jake,Us Army Retrired and still serving proudly.
     
  14. SARGE75X

    SARGE75X Member

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    Halfmile of course he deserves awards (for just being there) but the Silver Star is our nations third highest award and is awarded (according to my fathers SS) "for gallantry under fire". My dad got shot 3 times thru the legs but still managed to save the lives of his squad fighting house to house near Mortain France.Nothing against Pat Tilman he answered a higher calling and it's a crying shame what happened. But soldiers have been killed like this for a long time. There dosen't even have to be a war they are called training accidents. Chutes dont open, tanks slide into rivers, live fire exercises go bad.
     
  15. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    Pat Tillman's death was by friendly fire. According to the autopsy performed on him, two 5.56mm rounds less than 2" apart in the head, fired from a distance of less than 10 meters. So, the only soldier that close was the SP4 that went up that ridge with him. There is no way that the rounds were fired by one of the Rangers down on the road. The impact of the first round would jerk the head in such a manner that the second round would not be that close.

    As far as the Silver Star, no, he does not qualify under the regulations for the awarding of the medal:


    3-9. Silver Star
    a. The Silver Star, section 3746, title 10, United States Code (10 USC 3746), was established by Act of Congress 9 July 1918 (amended by act of 25 July 1963).

    b. The Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The required gallantry, while of a lesser degree than that required for the Distinguished Service Cross, must nevertheless have been performed with marked distinction.

    c. It is awarded upon letter application to Commander, PERSCOM, ATTN: TAPC-PDA, Alexandria, VA 22332-0471, to those individuals who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, received a citation for gallantry in action in World War I published in orders issued by a headquarters commanded by a general officer.

    If you get right down to it, he is not authorized the Purple Heart either. The regs state that the wound must be the result of enemy action. Friendly fire in the case with no enemy contact does not qualify.

    Those are the regs for both awards. I am not judging DA for what they did and the awards given to him. We all know that awards sometimes are just handed out to individuals who really didn't earn them. Just luck at the last Presidential election.

    Van
     
  16. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    The problem with just giving them out is that it waters down the meaning for those that really deserve and earned the award.

    Don
     
  17. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Of course, you can say that one soldier's death is no more or less significant than another's...(and that would be technically correct).


    But the Government knows better...don't they?


    They knew this Tillman guy was high-profile, and his death would be covered on every media outlet from ESPN to Baba Wawa.


    So if this is just your garden-variety combat death...then what was the Government afraid of?


    Saying, "Your son died in honorable service to his country" is _not_ the same thing as fabricating a cock-and-bull story.
     
  18. bobby ward

    bobby ward Member

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    buzz-gun,

    There are many things I do not know for sure, but certainly one thing I do know and was taught to respect, is the service and sacrifice of our American Veterans should be revered at the highest levels. People who put their lives on the line for the freedom of this nation and it's citizens, deserve our utmost respect. The family of those killed in that service and the citizens they fought for, deserve and MUST HAVE a full, factual and totally truthful accounting of their death, regardless of how painful that truth might be.

    Doing less spawns needless speculation and sensationlized accusations that mask the truth of what really happened. It leads to anguished and rightful demands from the family to have the real truth known. The ultimate sacrifice paid here by Pat Tillman or ANY other American Serviceman or woman, should not be diminished to such levels. They are shining examples of what makes this country great and what keeps you and I free.

    Nothing less than a truthful accounting of Tillmans death is acceptable, regardless of what the circumstances turn out to be. He earned that right didn't he?

    God Bless our Vets one and all..

    Bobby Ward
     
  19. SARGE75X

    SARGE75X Member

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    I know that WWII vets that were awarded a Combat Infantry Badge were automatically awarded a Bronze Star also. BTW I've never heard a word about Chicago's Mayor Daley's son who was going to try to join a Special Forces Group. After all the propaganda when he went in, then poof not another word.
     
  20. SF SGM

    SF SGM Member

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    SARGE75X,

    WWII vets had a choice at the end of the war, either the CIB or the Bronze Star for service. Many years later, they could apply and receive the award that they did not choose during WWII, e.i. BSM if they were awarded CIB and vice versa for they were awarded the CIB they got the BSM.

    Seems that DA for the last several "conflicts" like Grenada, Pananma and Desert Storm decided that AR 670-1 needed to be changed for the awarding of the lst award of the CIB. The reg states that you must be in the bush for 90 days at a battalion size unit or smaller. They waived the time frame for the last several conflicts but only for the first award. When we tried to get the 2nd award (1st from RVN) they said we did not qualify. Go figure!

    Van
     
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