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How to tell if left eye is taking over???

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by JBrooks, Jul 14, 2008.

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  1. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    If you can mount the gun and have your view switch between the top of the rib and the side of the barrel, you have a problem. If you shoot and miss but think you were on the target, particularly left angles for a right eye, right handed shooter, you may have a problem. You may have more problems late in the day or at night when your eyes are fatigued. If you miss 3 in a row, and that is unusual can be an indicator. Get Phil Kiner's latest video.
     
  2. atashooter

    atashooter Member

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    If you wake up one morning and the right eye is black and hanging out, and the left eye has a smile........ It took over :)
     
  3. Satch

    Satch TS Member

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    Definitely get Kiner's video--best ever discussion of cross-firing and what to do about it.

    In the meantime, have someone watch you and if they see your barrel "zig-zagging" right before you pull the trigger that's a sure sign of cross-firing.
     
  4. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    You will start looking for logical explanations in a world of grey. (a shot at my fellow engineers).

    Seriously, the experience is like you see the target really well but the gun feels akward and the target is missed cleanly. (as in by yards)
     
  5. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Get the Kiner video....best money & time spent!

    Curt
     
  6. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    Satch, IMHO it is not ALWAYS a sure sign of cross-firing. If you anticipate birds and start moving the gun BEFORE you ever see the target, then wouldn't you get the same motion (unless you can see into the future and know the exact angle of the anticipated target)?

    I will admit that it is a *likely* sign that you are cross-firing, but I don't think it is necessarily a sure one.

    Phil gives out an interesting eye excersize chart when you take his clinic. There are instructions on the back that you follow, and some comments on how the excersize indicates which eye is seeing and which is not. You would really have to consult with Phil on this, as he is the one that can tell you how it works, how to use it, and what his professional thoughts on this all are. He also has some other ways to excersize your dominant eye.
    I HIGHLY recommend getting the video, and then talking with Phil in detail about it.

    I also think that spending money and taking Phil's clinic at least once in your shooting career is a good investment. JMHO.
     
  7. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I have been struggling with this very same question for some time now. On Saturday during the State Singles Event I missed 6 targets from the 1st trap in perfect weather conditions. I figure these misses were the ugly crossfire showing up and I was shooting high and to the Left of the targets. I used the tape patch on my left lens for the last 50 and broke 48 with a low gun hold. I then tried the tape patch for a practice handicap round and it was a total disaster. I watched the Phil Kiner video about 4 times and his statement that "the problem is Not that your left eye sees the bead but that your left eye takes over when it sees the target" blew me away. Pat Ireland offered a plausible explanation in that the target appears in a slightly different location for each eye. The brain interprets this difference in location as a single image for the dominate eye. If the off eye takes over during the target flight, you might be pointing to the wrong location instead of where the gun is pointing when your on shoulder eye is in control. I still have not made the committment to use the tape patch because I am having so much difficulty with Handicap but it seems to be OK for Singles.
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    To see the effect of how the left eye can skew the sight picture, close the right eye and aim with the left. Opening the right will show you how far off target you really are when that happens. Head tilted to the side makes it even more drastic on the vertical scale. Hap
     
  9. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Mike,

    I switched in February to the tape. It took me 2 months to figure out singles but I have just now started shooting consistant 23s, 24, and 25s from the 27. I think, I was trying to "see" the leads on the hard angles on 1 & 5 rather than just shooting naturally. I think about another 1000 locked hard angle practice targets on 1 & 5 should get me back to mid 90s in HC.

    It certainly helped in singles in that I have picked up almost 3 points in average from 95.6 to 98.4 since the change. Just commit to it and stick with it.

    Good luck.
     
  10. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    I hate to differ with many of you but personal experience is not the benchmark for anything. Think about this statement first before you criticize my statement.

    If your gun fits and your looking at the target properly you will not miss regardless of which eye is dominate at the time.




    The total error is only that of PD Pupilary distance 60-80 mm not enough to cause a miss using a shotgun with a properly choked barrel.

    If you are an aimer your in trouble because then your error is the movement of the shotgun barrel from the line of sight to across the line of sight by the PD which would result in 12-15 feet of error.

    Please learn what the best shooters all do look at the target and not the gun.
    Get a gun that fits and keep your head in the same place.

    I can prove this for any that are still obtuse to this please PM me I don't want to start an international incident like on release triggers.

    This is not just an opinion but backed up with experimentation. It's also just plane Geometry just like most gunfitting.

    Joe goldberg
     
  11. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Why don't you post about making gunstocks so that those of us who don't know about making gunstocks maybe can learn something and leave stuff about shooting to those that can shoot and can share personal experiences that perhaps others can draw from?

    just sayin'
     
  12. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Turn your private messaging on Jim and I'll be glad to answer you. Other wise you can remain Ignorant! I answer all of your questions and you can't answer any of mine. #1 I think I've been shooting a whole heck of a lot longer than you.

    When did you get your first ATA Card? Mine was in 1986. Just because I don't shoot a lot doesn't mean that I can't. Give me a week and I can beat your average scores. last time I shot 1000 targets in a month was over 15 years ago I just have other priories. I've shot at top levels of target competition in several sports but my primary Interest is Shooting over Springer Spaniels. I'd be willing to guess that in over thirty years of shooting over dogs that I've shot as many pigeons and pheasants as you have shot targets in your few years of target shooting. I know it's over your registered targets.

    I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with you but you have to start every time. If I didn't know about shooting I couldn't build the stocks that I do you arrogant "Release is the only way to shoot." Have you walked up to Kay or Harlan and told them that they need tape on their glasses? Try telling Mr. Campbell that he needs to shoot a release if he ever wants to be a good shooter.
    Why haven't you? I know both of them and have questioned them extensively along with 10 or so other world champions about shotgunning. Most of the information I give here you would have to take lessons and pay a lot of different champion shooters to find out what I have from them in the last 28 or so years

    Occasionally you even get some of it right and I give you credit when you do even though I can tell your quoting from some book.

    Give it a rest if you can't form a logical argument!
    Joe
     
  13. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Sorry Jerry,

    The answer to your question is if you become aware of the front of the gun and not the target your probably aiming and when you see the front of the gun clearly or the target is fuzz and you miss tham it's a good bet your crossfiring some of the time.
    A professional watching would help!
    Joe
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Joe- We do not, or should not, aim a shotgun as we do a rifle, but still to make a straight line from the eye, down the barrel to the bird, we must have two points of reference. These should be the eye pupil (more accurately the fovea centralis of the retina) and the end of the barrel. The barrel end is out of focus but still must remain as a point along the straight line to the target. Only one eye can be involved in establishing this straight line. If both eyes are involved, two different lines will be established and they will be about 12 feet apart at 40 yards. Using both eyes sets up a triangle and two straight lines from the base of a triangle can only cross at one point. They will not be parallel lines from the eye, the end of the barrel and the target.

    The eye is the rear sight for a shotgun. Moving this rear sight will change the POI.

    win1911sl- You asked how to tell if you occasionally cross sight. I shoot right handed and once in a while, usually on a right handed target from post 1,2 or 3, just before or as I shoot, the target I am looking at disappears from my vision. The specific problem you mentioned sounded much more like you are not staying in the gun and not cross sighting.
     
  15. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    re: Eye doc says 20/20 both eyes with my glasses on.

    With my glasses off, my doctor says my right eye is three times weaker then my left. Not good : (

    I just had my prescription rewrote to beef up the right eye, as if I try to shoot with two eyes, my left eye always tries to take over and I end up shooting one eye. The Doc really did not want to go that route, but he went along. Said to come back if any problems.

    What the results will be, have no idea as I'm waiting to to receive my new shooting glasses.

    I do know that with the new prescription on my regular glasses, I was dizzy for the first hour and could from time to time in the first 24 hours feel the right eye working.

    After that everything settled down and very comfortable.
     
  16. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    WN1911 AND anyone else that is having a problem and suspect or are afraid to suspect that you may have a cross-fire problem feel free to contact me.
    Go to www.philkiner.com - there is an email link there. If you send me a phone number I will call you. This topic is much too complicated to explain in a paragraph and with a little bit of question and answer I have a better chance of using the "psychic hotline" to help with your problem. Phil
     
  17. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    "I hate to differ with many of you but personal experience is not the benchmark for anything."

    Pure stupidity in that you go on to claim it is your vast experience on which you base your claims.

    "If your gun fits and your looking at the target properly you will not miss regardless of which eye is dominate at the time."

    Pure BS as everyone knows.

    "I've shot as many pigeons and pheasants as you have shot targets in your few years of target shooting."

    That would be about 3000 per year. What were the bag limits?

    "Give me a week and I can beat your average scores."

    Have at it. My average on my last 500 registered singles targets is 99.00(495/500). I recall your bragging about shooting a 98 once.

    "Release is the only way to shoot."

    It is a pure lie to imply that this is a quote from me by using quotation marks. While I think a release is a superior bio-mechanical device for trapshooting, if a person is proficient with a pull trigger why should they change? Either produce the link to the thread or apologize for trying to mislead others about what I posted.

    Now why don't you just explain in detail why there is no cross dominant problems as long as a gun fits? Your ranting about release triggers finally boiled down to A. You didn't know what a flinch was, and B. your solution was to practice shooting with your eyes closed. I do suppose that that would solve any cross dominance issues as well and based on your ATA averages you may have been a practioner.

    Now, I am done with you on this subject as well. Rant on brother.

    Now for everyone else, as I suggested in my first post, if you think this may be an issue, get Phil Kiners video or take him up on his generous offer to speak with him personally. His credibility on the subject is unquestionable.
     
  18. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    "If your gun fits and your looking at the target properly you will not miss regardless of which eye is dominate at the time."

    Pure BS as everyone knows. Brooks prove what your saying. Every one knows?




    "I've shot as many pigeons and pheasants as you have shot targets in your few years of target shooting."

    "That would be about 3000 per year. What were the bag limits?" Brooks I shot the birds while training dogs in the field and at field trials. About 1500-3000 a year for about 15 years I'm now down to around 500 live birds a year now. I've been shooting birds for over the last 30 years. How long have you been shooting trap? Answer the question you know nothing blow hard wannabe.



    "Give me a week and I can beat your average scores."

    Have at it. My average on my last 500 registered singles targets is 99.00(495/500). I recall your bragging about shooting a 98 once.

    Brooks your average for the last year a few scores don't count. Just your logic. The 98 this year was one of only two scores shot registered by myself. and about 400 total targets shot in 6 months. But if your willing to shoot 500 trap and 500 international skeet your on any day you want to try to prove your the better shooter. What do you think you'll shoot? About 22 years ago I used to shoot 100 straits in practice almost every week. At the time I was shooting at least 500 targets. I haven't shot over 1000 total targets trap or skeet or sporting combined in any year in the last 12. Yes give me a week and I can since I've done it before.

    "Now why don't you just explain in detail why there is no cross dominant problems as long as a gun fits? Your ranting about release triggers finally boiled down to A. You didn't know what a flinch was, and B. your solution was to practice shooting with your eyes closed. I do suppose that would solve any cross dominance issues as well and based on your ATA averages you may have been a practioner(sic)."


    Moron you tell me your the expert What is a flinch and what are the causes?

    I never said anything about practicing with your eyes closed. As usual you can't read or you have no comprehension. Is your handy cap yardage and your IQ the same? Provide the thread your referring to and I'll explain it to you using smaller words.

    If your so sure of your self get to Prince George county Range in Maryland with $5000 and I'll give you 2 to 1 odds that in a general shooting competition I will beat you. Not just on the trap field since I haven't been practicing Trap for the last three years like you have. Now I know that there are shooters that would love to make that kind of money but I know you won't. Your just hot air!

    Sorry about the " " marks I was trying to denote your attitude on a subject which seems to be your is the only way. You did misquote me in this thread suggesting that I told people to practice with their eyes closed I thought you were smarter than that. NOW YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY!

    "Now, I am done with you on this subject as well. Rant on brother."
    If you weren't so arrogant and if you could ask intelligent Questions like Pat you wouldn't have to take your ball and go home. Please apologize for implying that we are related. I have no common or uncommon farm animals that are relations of mine.




    Joe
     
  19. Satch

    Satch TS Member

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    recurvy,

    Yes, it could look similar to someone watching if the shooter "zigs"
    out in front and then has to "zag" back to the bird, but the shooter
    would presumably know that's what they did.

    In fact, that just happened to me Sunday on the Skeet field (where it's "easier" to get caught anticipating since you always know where the target is going and where you should break it). It was obvious to me that I had jumped out in front though, and I was able to come back and still hit the bird.

    With true cross-firing, the shooter typically has a good move to the bird, but
    then right before firing the barrel zig-zags (as the other eye takes over), the shooter misses, and doesn't have a clue why they missed.
     
  20. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Pat,

    If a gun shoots approximately where your looking and you set up using the Dominate eye and position your head correctly you will shoot approximately where your looking. Providing that your head does not move in relation to the Origional set up on the mount. Now if you move your head or take focus off of the target all bets are off.

    I have several friends that are excellent hip shooters. They can shoot targets quite well with an un mounted gun. 25 straight is not uncommon the best I have witnessed is a 98 at trap. When I asked my friend a world champion sporting clay shooter, "Do you ever flinch with the gun at your hip?" his answer was no never. He can shoot with either eye closed as well. So what gives? I'd like Brooks to answer that one.

    I know what your saying but were usually talking about a temporary shift that is happening as we are shooting a target and when focused on the target and are not checking the beads or end of the barrel It won't happen.

    I've done this as a test. Pre mount a gun and then have someone block your dominate eye and then call and shoot a target. Make a card that clips on to a hat. If you don't look for the end of the gun you'll break the target most of the time. If what your saying was true than you would miss by 12 to 15 feet all the time. Now some shooters are better at this than others. I have tested a few shooters that can do this 90% + of the time. Others are around 50% and they usually admit that they were bead checking when they did miss.

    DON'T DO THIS DURING THE TARGET SEASON IT CAN MESS WITH YOUR SCORES FOR A FEW DAYS. There's a laterality issue to deal with.

    As always I enjoy any intelligent questions. Debate is good it's how we learn.

    Thanks Joe
     
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