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How to hard plumb Ponsness Warren Hydraulic system

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by riflegunbuilder, Apr 24, 2012.

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  1. riflegunbuilder

    riflegunbuilder Member

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    I want to run 5 P-W presses off of one pump. Instead of using the quik connects and plugging and un plugging I want to hook up manifolds with ball valves. Anyone ever done this? How many psi cap. ball valves to hold the pressure on the presses that are turned off? Any help is appreciated.
  2. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    It CAN be done. The issue is you will be dealing with high pressure lines. This gets pricey.

    I must admit I do not know the functional pressure of the hydraulic pumps for re-loaders...

    I attach a link to McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#brass-manifolds/=h8si1n) for 'high pressure manifolds' - these happen to be brass ones.

    If I were setting it up I would locate the pump centrally and feed directly into a manifold. From the manifold lines would supply each individual machine - you could use high pressure piping (http://www.mcmaster.com/#brass-pipe/=h8skao), or hydraulic hosing (http://www.mcmaster.com/#hydraulic-fluid-hose/=h8smgu)- neither is going to be cheap.

    You will also need five control valves.

    You would need to understand that this system should run one machine at a time - although you COULD physically cycle two or more - if you do this, you will be sucking power from the system.

    One issue to consider, is that you will be increasing the volume of oil under pressure in the pump system and owing to expansion, trapped, air, etc. you will most likely have a pressure drop for the system.

    With this in mind you might put valves into the manifold itself that lets you isolate each machine - turning on only one at a time (http://www.mcmaster.com/#brass-ball-valves/=h8sn6k).

    I'd consider adding a return reservoir to the system as well - placed so that all the returns feed into it and it sits before the pump - allows air to rise out of the oil and helps to 'balance' the system - last thing you want is to have too much oil under pressure as it feeds one machine/cylinder...
  3. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    One tip fo the hydraulic user is to replace the allen screw holding the handle with a longer bolt and lock nut.If the allen screw loosens and the ram end backs out it will break the end cap for an expensive fix. Check with the seller of the system for recomendations, it can be done. Jeff
  4. dward

    dward TS Member

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    I added a pressure gauge to my system and I think you are dealing with around 300 psi. There is a screw on the pump that allows you to dial the pressure up or down and I wanted to be sure what mine was. When the machine bottoms out (up or down) you hear a squeel and that's the sound of the fluid going through the pressure relief valve in the pump which effectively recirculates it back into the pump reservoir. This controls the max pressure sent to the press. You can call PW and ask what they set their systems at (which I did back when). Given the work you are putting into setting your system up I'd recommend installing a gauge at the pump or somewhere in the system. As for the valves......I'd make sure they were rated for 500psi or better........but that is a question PW can answer too.

    As for a reservoir/manifold, the pump itself has a pretty big reservoir that should suffice.......but given that you will be feeding 5 systems you'll just want to make sure that you keep the pump reservoir full as you are bleeding/filling the individual systems. I really don't see any problem with what you are doing..........and it should make a pretty impressive looking reloading system when you are done!

    Good Luck - Big Dan
  5. skeeljc

    skeeljc Active Member

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    There is a type of control valve that will allow several control valves to be used in series. Then you could have one control valve for each loader and which ever one you sat down at would operate without changing any valves. This could get a little spendy but it sounds like that would not be a problem.

    Jim Skeel<BR>
    P/W Dealer/Distributor
  6. riflegunbuilder

    riflegunbuilder Member

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    Big bore613/Jeff, not sure where the alllen screw you are talking about is.

    I may not have been clear originaly; The way I am envisioning this working is Pressure out from pump(PO) goes to a 5 port manifold each port has a ball valve and a line going out to an individual machine/cyl.

    A second manifold would have Pressure In(PI) with a line run to the PI side of the pump with ball valves at manifold.

    In operation for example; we will call the 410 machine #5, both #5 ball valves are open. Valves 1-4 are in closed position leaving the cylenders and lines for 1-4 filled and shut off. In effect the ball valves and manifolds take the place of the quik connects and eliminate fluid dripping at each quik connect attatch or disconnect.
  7. dward

    dward TS Member

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    I was writing when you posted and it looks like you plan on 2 valves per press and below was written without knowing that.

    After thinking about this a while....I think I would add a valve to both sides of the presses. Which would require 10 valves. If you only add one valve per press you are putting pressure to the side that doesn't have a valve when you cycle the loader. And you will be stressing all the seals in the cylinderes that aren't working. Don't know how much wear and tear this would cause??.........but something to think about??
  8. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    You have the correct idea, but you only want to valve off the pressure feed sides, you want the return lines to freely drain to a common reservoir which the pump then draws from.

    Your manifold would have five valves - turn on the one for the machine you intend to use. This will allow you to use that machine as if it were on a dedicated pump.

    I would place a reservoir next to the pump, even though it has it's own. As the system sits oil will want to drain down. You will need a place for this to go. If you use ONLY the reservoir for the pump you risk ending up with either too much or too little oil in the loop you energize. The reservoir prevents this from happening.
  9. dward

    dward TS Member

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    I don't want to rain on anyones parade here, but once the system is full of fluid nothing will drain anywhere, unless there are leaks in the system or inside the foot acuator. The only true "return" line in the whole system is from the foot pedal back to the pump reservoir. And if you add a reservoir ahead of the pump, how does the fluid get back to the pump reservoir??
  10. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    Each return line feeds to the reservoir, the reservoir then feeds in to the pump.

    MOST hydraulic systems have closed, high pressure side(s), and open, low pressure side(s).

    I'll admit I do not know if the P/W system is opened or closed, but closed loops are a pain to use - especially when trying to do what you wish to do. If they become un balanced they can lock up.

    I suspect there is some kind of open pressure port on the reservoir side of the pump.

    As the oil flows out of the foot valve two things happen - there is a high pressure 'drive' and a low pressure 'empty' (on either the 'load shell' or the 'return' stroke a low pressure line will take the oil back to the reservoir).

    You want to accumulate this low pressure oil, allow it to settle (let air bubbles rise), and keep the correct amount flowing to any individual machine, that's what the reservoir is for.
  11. riflegunbuilder

    riflegunbuilder Member

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    HSLDS, Since each cyl is double acting PI and PO is the pump PO and PI or pressure and return that switches PO & PI at the foot valve?

    IS there much leacking with each connect and dis-connect? should I just use the quik connect and abandon this idea? My concern is a lot of times I am in a position where my time allows me to load 100 of one gauge at one time and may need a 100 of another gauge vs several hundred of each gauge before swapping machines.
  12. dward

    dward TS Member

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    The way my PW hydraulics work (and I think they are all the same) is once the pump is turned on it is always moving fluid. If the foot control is in the neutral position it just recirculates directly back to the reservoir in a loop through the foot control. When you activate the foot control one way or the other it pushes fluid through one line and it is returned through the other. Thus the lines beyond the foot control are both pressure and return depending which way you press. When the press reaches the top or bottom and stops, the pressure builds until it hits the limit of the pressure valve inside of the pump and that's when you'll hear a squeel. The adjustment on the pump controls when the pressure relief valve allows fluid to bypass.

    Given the size of the cylinder on the press, the system is basically purged each time you cycle the loader. And any air is gone from the system a few cycles after the first time it's filled. And unless there is a faulty pump there shouldn't be any bubbles/air in the system.

    Reading riflegunbuilders last post, he's got it figured out. There are a ton of hydraulics supply outfits on line where this kind of stuff can be found very reasonably.
  13. dward

    dward TS Member

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    "IS there much leacking with each connect and dis-connect? should I just use the quik connect and abandon this idea?"

    I would say there isn't that much leaking (a few drops) when you change the quick connects. As to whether you should hook it up permanently or change the hoses out?? it's all up to you. If I had invested in the 5 presses and hydraulic cylinders it would be nice to have.......I just don't know how clean the whole set up would look. It would probably depend a bit on where everything was located.
  14. dflo

    dflo Member

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    The easy way would be to have a foot pedal valve plumbed in parallel for each press. The foot pedal spools do not have a power beyond so daisy chain the pressure side have all returns going to a manifold then back to the reservoir. When you turn the pump on all presses can be operated individually or simultaneously. I did this on mine except I used Parker electric valves and Line Master foot pedal switches.

    Dale
  15. riflegunbuilder

    riflegunbuilder Member

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    Dale, that sounds interesting. Can I get a picture or a drawing?
  16. dflo

    dflo Member

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    Sure I can give you a schematic on the system. Are you using the blue motor pump?

    Dale
  17. riflegunbuilder

    riflegunbuilder Member

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    Dale, it is a Leeson. Don't know what color I won't have them in hand until after Krieghoff Master's.
  18. whiz white

    whiz white Perazzi & P/W Part s Dealer & Repair Staff Member Supporting Vendor

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    The Leeson motor is blue, but the hydraulic pump is black. These are the most current models.

    I seriously doubt you can raise the pressure with the adjusting screw. You have to change the pump to increase the pressure.

    Incidentally, I have a nice used setup here at the shop that I want $750 out of, if anyone is interested. I had it on the Spolar, but my buddy just had to have the Spolar, so the pump assy is extra.

    Whiz
  19. dward

    dward TS Member

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    I have the Leeson pump and mine was adjustable as I installed a pressure gauge and adjusted the pressure. I have an older two ram system and I wanted to make sure it was set to the right pressure....which is why I called PW to see what they recommended. Below is an answer I got by googling "how to adjust pressure on Leeson pump"


    Answer:

    Hydraulic pumps do not develop pressure. Pumps can only develop flow. To obtain pressure in an hydraulic system, restriction to flow must be introduced. In order to control pressure, pressure relief valves are used. These valves, simply put, employ spring pressure acting on a check ball that resists the flow of oil. Most pressure relief valves are adjustable within a given range so that system pressure is also adjustable.

    The adjustment screw is under a cap and shouldn't be changed unless you have a gauge on the system and know what PW recommends.
  20. Twinbirds

    Twinbirds TS Member

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    a neat way if you have the skills and $ would be to plumb it using ss tubing, it will hold the pressure and if you plan it correctly it will look awesome. sorry I don't have any pictures to show you of ss systems I have built out in the industry.
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