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How to get there?........

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by biff, Jan 27, 2008.

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  1. biff

    biff Active Member

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    It seems as though several of the top shooters who have produced How to Videos have different methods for becoming a good shooter. Is there anyone on TS. Com that has taken clinics from more than one of these top shooters that would care to comment on the different methods. Biff
     
  2. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Common thread...shoot an insanely large amount.
     
  3. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    They can't necessarily make you a good shooter. They may be able to make you a better shooter. We are all limited by our talent and by the time and money we are able and willing to invest to develop that talent.

    However, for the cost of participating in 2 or 3 ATA shoots, you can take a seminar from a big name shooter. Seemed like a reasonable investment to me.

    While a seminar isn't the total answer, it can certainly be part of the process of getting better.
     
  4. biff

    biff Active Member

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    JB, I was asking how each clinic presenter has you address the target, not necessarily whether to take their clinic.

    I'm not under the delusion that by taking a clinic you will automatically shoot exactly as good as the presenter. Also I'm not asking for a critique of their classes; I'm trying to see if they all have a common thread as how to see and break the target. To me that is the Key and may be just one of the main reasons why their scores are better. I know they present much, much more in their clinics than what I'm asking---but I'm sure someone who has taken clinics by different presenters will know what I'm asking. Thanks, Biff
     
  5. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Green Bay Wisconsin
    People just don't get it. I don't think the good shooters can create other super shooters.

    For example, look at other sports. Olymic skaters have coaches. they for the most part were not top skaters. NO, they are good coaches.

    Being a top performer does not give you some kind of magic ability to make someone else the same. Kaye and Leo and Harlan all have different styles. this is not to say their clinics are not useful. I think you can come away from one with more than you started with.

    I talk to people who took clinics for Harlan, Leo, and Kaye. All had good things to say. None of them won the Grand next year.

    Coaches coach, athletes perform. Somewhere there is a coach who doesn't shoot well but can teach like the dickens.

    Coaching, like performing, is an ability. Check the NFL coaching staffs, you will find but a very few HOF players.

    Find a good coach, but don't confine your search to top shooters.

    HM
     
  6. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Biff, I attended Kay, Frank, Phil, and Leo...and on some level, they all say, see the bird first, then move.


    Kay wants you to see it immediately. And he'll have you do an exercise where you staple blinders onto your hat to constrict your field of vision, to force you to move quicker (once you've seen the bird) to keep your gun in the same visual frame as the target.


    Phil allows for the possibility you may have to see it farther out, depending on your eyes.


    Kay and Frank stressed keeping your gun either below or on the line of the target, but not getting your gun above it.


    Phil talks about the subconscious act of the target "pulling the gun" along with it.


    But none of them differ on that first point.


    I suspect all of them know way more than they can actually ever try to convey, because they know that to be a champion, you will have to come by the knowledge your own way, for you to internalize it, for it to be real for you. They will point you the right direction, so that you can discover it yourself if you put in the work. They probably know that those who "get it," and have an insatiable desire to find it, will eventually do so. And conversely, those who don't, wouldn't listen anyway.


    Their job in the clinic is just to save you a few missteps, if you're so inclined, and possibly tell you something about your technique you didn't know.


    I think the main value of these instructors, is that in their travels, they've probably seen hundreds of ordinary students, with hundreds of ordinary student problems. After a while, they probably begin to classify these problems into groups, and when they see you muff something up, they draw on that accumulated knowledge of seeing other people do it a hundred times, to point you the right way.


    The limitation of these instructors is that they only see you shoot on 1 or 2 days, usually under good conditions, usually on your best behavior. They don't see you over time, like a real coach does, so you have to keep that limitation in mind.


    But you don't come out of any of these clinics with the secret in a paper sack, ready to be taken home, unwrapped, and implemented. You come out with a roughly-drawn road map. Many go in there looking for "TIPS," little tidbits they can implement immediately and see an improvement next weekend. "He said I was doing *this*, and he told me to stop doing that and do *this* instead...and Shazam, I did it, and I went out and shot a 99 next weekend!" That type of thing. I hear that all-the-time from people who went to clinics.
     
  7. biff

    biff Active Member

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    It seems as though several of the top shooters who have produced How to Videos have different methods for becoming a good shooter. Is there anyone on TS. Com that has taken clinics from more than one of these top shooters that would care to comment on the different methods. Biff
     
  8. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Common thread...shoot an insanely large amount.
     
  9. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,707
    They can't necessarily make you a good shooter. They may be able to make you a better shooter. We are all limited by our talent and by the time and money we are able and willing to invest to develop that talent.

    However, for the cost of participating in 2 or 3 ATA shoots, you can take a seminar from a big name shooter. Seemed like a reasonable investment to me.

    While a seminar isn't the total answer, it can certainly be part of the process of getting better.
     
  10. biff

    biff Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,140
    JB, I was asking how each clinic presenter has you address the target, not necessarily whether to take their clinic.

    I'm not under the delusion that by taking a clinic you will automatically shoot exactly as good as the presenter. Also I'm not asking for a critique of their classes; I'm trying to see if they all have a common thread as how to see and break the target. To me that is the Key and may be just one of the main reasons why their scores are better. I know they present much, much more in their clinics than what I'm asking---but I'm sure someone who has taken clinics by different presenters will know what I'm asking. Thanks, Biff
     
  11. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    People just don't get it. I don't think the good shooters can create other super shooters.

    For example, look at other sports. Olymic skaters have coaches. they for the most part were not top skaters. NO, they are good coaches.

    Being a top performer does not give you some kind of magic ability to make someone else the same. Kaye and Leo and Harlan all have different styles. this is not to say their clinics are not useful. I think you can come away from one with more than you started with.

    I talk to people who took clinics for Harlan, Leo, and Kaye. All had good things to say. None of them won the Grand next year.

    Coaches coach, athletes perform. Somewhere there is a coach who doesn't shoot well but can teach like the dickens.

    Coaching, like performing, is an ability. Check the NFL coaching staffs, you will find but a very few HOF players.

    Find a good coach, but don't confine your search to top shooters.

    HM
     
  12. crusha

    crusha TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,762
    Biff, I attended Kay, Frank, Phil, and Leo...and on some level, they all say, see the bird first, then move.


    Kay wants you to see it immediately. And he'll have you do an exercise where you staple blinders onto your hat to constrict your field of vision, to force you to move quicker (once you've seen the bird) to keep your gun in the same visual frame as the target.


    Phil allows for the possibility you may have to see it farther out, depending on your eyes.


    Kay and Frank stressed keeping your gun either below or on the line of the target, but not getting your gun above it.


    Phil talks about the subconscious act of the target "pulling the gun" along with it.


    But none of them differ on that first point.


    I suspect all of them know way more than they can actually ever try to convey, because they know that to be a champion, you will have to come by the knowledge your own way, for you to internalize it, for it to be real for you. They will point you the right direction, so that you can discover it yourself if you put in the work. They probably know that those who "get it," and have an insatiable desire to find it, will eventually do so. And conversely, those who don't, wouldn't listen anyway.


    Their job in the clinic is just to save you a few missteps, if you're so inclined, and possibly tell you something about your technique you didn't know.


    I think the main value of these instructors, is that in their travels, they've probably seen hundreds of ordinary students, with hundreds of ordinary student problems. After a while, they probably begin to classify these problems into groups, and when they see you muff something up, they draw on that accumulated knowledge of seeing other people do it a hundred times, to point you the right way.


    The limitation of these instructors is that they only see you shoot on 1 or 2 days, usually under good conditions, usually on your best behavior. They don't see you over time, like a real coach does, so you have to keep that limitation in mind.


    But you don't come out of any of these clinics with the secret in a paper sack, ready to be taken home, unwrapped, and implemented. You come out with a roughly-drawn road map. Many go in there looking for "TIPS," little tidbits they can implement immediately and see an improvement next weekend. "He said I was doing *this*, and he told me to stop doing that and do *this* instead...and Shazam, I did it, and I went out and shot a 99 next weekend!" That type of thing. I hear that all-the-time from people who went to clinics.
     
  13. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Ok Biff,

    If you really want to know how to get there, go to the ATA Shooter Info Center and start putting in the names of the top shooters, not just the big dogs, but the guys who are on top in your own state. You will find that it takes 3-4 years of heavy competition for a shooter to "arrive". Measure that by a 98+ in singles and a 91.5+ in 27HC. Probably 25,000 targets in each. It then takes another 25,000-50,000 targets before you see 99s and 93.5s show up. These are the numbers for even the most talented shooters. YMMV, but not on the plus side.
     
  14. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Ben Hogan, the great golfer, was onced asked if one needed a coach, to become a gread golfer. His reply, no, just go out and hit a million practice balls, and you will be a great golfer.
     
  15. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    FYI;

    I am not a golfer but have hit thousands upon thousands of golf balls and it did not do anything to help with shooting trap ... Hope this helps ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  16. biff

    biff Active Member

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    I know there are many factors which influence your scores in shooting trap. To me it's not the gun, it's the fit,also consistency in what you are doing will also help you eleminate areas which can lower scores(ie. using same shells, clothing, stance,hold points, gun mount,ect.). I don't feel shooting thousands of rounds practicing wrong methods helps in any way, training on what your weaknesses are will help though. After getting down all these basics then it becomes a matter of concentrating on exactly what you are doing when you are supposed to be doing it. Beyond that it evidently is limited by the potential of your natural ability.

    I was looking for the common thread here of all clinic presenters to see if what they all say is "SEE the target, Shoot the target!" Trapshooting appears to be about 80% visual, 90% concentration,70% natural/learned ability, 5%equipment,15%Luck! Biff
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Biff- What accounts for the remaining 10%?

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Quick question: Is Tiger Wood's coach better than him?

    People better realize that you are: Exceptional, Good, Mediocre, Fair and Bad when it comes down to sports and/or hand and eye control.

    In trapshooting Class language:

    Exceptional = AAA/AA

    Good = A

    Mediocre = B

    Fair = C

    Bad = D

    A coach and practice can only refine your natural ability. Just check out the demographics and see what class most of our shooters are located.

    A more simpler way is to just look around when you're at a large shoot....

    Curt
     
  19. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Curt,

    Wouldn't you have to add in an evaluation of a persons handicap and maybe even doubles averages to rate them? I mean guys with 97+ singles and an 88 HC averages raises some questions. As does low 80 doubles. I think you have to be adept all around.
     
  20. biff

    biff Active Member

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    Pat, I was using arithmetic learned at the Yogi Berra Institute of Advance Mathmetical Induction and Reasoning! The remaining 10% plus 30 is attributed to chance caused by bad target setting,getting a bad draw of undesirable banks(if you want to know which bank is bad, just check out the ones I seem to draw),wind, poor atmosphereic conditions(bad light and rain), and targets which got wet and then dried out to form a substance impervious to small lead balls! Biff
     
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