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How shotguns get blown up

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by chipking, Sep 9, 2009.

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  1. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Lately there has been a lot of talk about both K-80 and Caesar Guerinis blowing up. The possibility of a drastic overload in the shell gets Po-Po'd as "It can't happen, the components won't fit, Any Idiot could see it is an overcharged shell". The latest incident was a CG and some of the club members where the incident occured wrote a "report" that at best is speculation and at worst is outright BS written so the gun owner( also a club member and assisted with the report) could wave it around and threaten a lawsuit. In that report they specify that the gun owner had just purchased a new PW loader about a month before the incident. I like PWs and have owned 6 or so BUT in every instruction manual in several different places is a warning about "backing the loader up" and the fact that it can cause a double charge of shot (obvious because it spills out all over your bench) AND a double charge of powder (easy to miss when you are cussing and cleaning up shot).


    Now for the Fun.


    Based on the data in the report I went downstairs and made up some reloads on my Spolar
    Win 209 , AA case (I used HS which has less room than the compression formed) , 20 gr International clays, WAA12SL wad and 7/8oz hard shot.


    Two normal AA reloads Right?


    [​IMG]


    WRONG The one on the left is normal the one on the right contains 40 grains of International Clays


    [​IMG]


    The only thing at all noticable is a slightly larger hole at the center of the crimp


    [​IMG]


    AND That is how shotguns get blown up
    --- Chip King ---
     
  2. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Did you ever try it with a MEC loader?
     
  3. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Did it blow up your gun?
     
  4. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    I was told that there is a scenario where either a double powder charge with wad and one shot charge or a correct powder charge, no wad and a double shot charge is possible with an 800 series Ponsness-Warren Loader. I used to have an old 800b with the full length case dies and loaded tons of shell on it but I never experienced anything like this.

    Is this possible?
     
  5. Steve W

    Steve W Well-Known Member

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    Have you read about shotgun safety instruction classes that tried to blow up a shotgun barrel with double charges? Most of them failed to do so on the first attempt. Usually they have to come back and plug the barrel to get it blown. Although most of them tested with H & R Topper that has a very thick barrel, but some used 870s with similar results.

    I certainly wouldn't try it myself, but seems it's not that easy to blow up a barrel without plugging it.
     
  6. Savage99Stan

    Savage99Stan Active Member

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    Had a guy come into the shop yesterday and ask how much we'd charge to check out a shotgun for him to see if it was safe. Said it was an old Remington double with damascus barrels. I said I'd do it for free. It ain't safe. Not with modern shells. If he'd get it magnafluxed for cracks and load blackpowder loads it might be safe but for all intents and purposes, it ain't safe.

    There is safe and there is not safe. Why anyone would want to take a chance is beyond me.
     
  7. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    I was able to load a double charge when this subject was brought up a few years ago. I did it on a Mec and it wasn't all that hard to do. It was done on a grabber and resulted in a similar looking shell. No appreciable difference between the overloaded one and the normal load. I would think that a gun without any real defects or weaknesses would not come apart with one of these, but I do believe it can find a gun that has a significant weakness already. I wouldn't want to try this shell in any of MY guns. I think a steady diet of high pressure loads can eventually destroy a firearm. Reading some of the documents published by HP White Labs seem to agree.
     
  8. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Does anyone even know much pressure this double charge would generate?
     
  9. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Barry C Roach.........yes it is very easy if you are not co-orninated, can't chew gum and walk at the same time, scatter brained, forgetful, etc. etc. etc.
    I thought my MEC was bad about making messes, I bought a used PW 800B and this thing is a nightmare. I forget to turn off the powder, or shot, or forget to turn it on, forget the wad, forget the shell and on and on. I have learned the hardway, it is very easy to double charge a shell. It happens when a step is missed. I think the problem I have with the PW, is with most other loaders, you put in a new shell and wad on the upstroke of the handle, where as the PW gets a new shell on the down stroke and a new wad on the up.

    As to blow ups, yeah, metal fatigue plays an important part, but when you see this on a new gun, chances are 99.99% of the time there is an obstruction in the barrel, and I have seen bulges and blowups in pistols, rifles and shotguns. In the case of pistols and rifles a bullet does not exit the barrel, because of a weak or no powder charge and in the case of a shotgun, the wad is stuck in the barrel for the same reason. People need to remember, most gun makers put "proof" loads in their guns to test them and most people could not duplicate a proof load if they tried. Proof loads will generate two to three times the pressure of a normal factory shell.
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    JerryP, I'd make a WAG and say it wouldn't come even close to a proof loads pressure!

    Chip, maybe Bruce Bowen could have used your recipe when he tried blowing up his cheaply made H&R shotgun? Without coming anywhere close to creating a proof loads chamber pressure with everyones best blow up recipe. There were many written here for him to try too and all of those failed to "blow" the gun.

    Top Single DT10 is closer to what really blows up more shotguns than your double charged load, with all due respect. Hap
     
  11. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    But are the two specific scenarios I spelled out, possible?
     
  12. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Barry C. Roach,

    Well not in my case, I could never get a finished shell out of it. A double charge of powder or shot, just made a big mess, but the press never spit out a finished shell, espcially one that looked like any other normal shell.
     
  13. samiam03

    samiam03 Member

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    ChipKing:

    What report are you referring to? If it's the report from Quantico I feel you're way off base. That was a thorough report and the investigators had the full resources of the Marine Corp to assist in their investigation. All the investigators have years of experience and impeccable resumes. Plus, if there had been any question regarding their findings they could have asked the FBI crime lab for assistance – they’re on the base

    Sam
     
  14. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Does a 7/8ths ounce load of shot with a double charge of fast burning powder have more chamber pressure than if loaded with a full 1-1/8th load of shot?

    I tried finding the tests that were done so I could copy a few of the guys favorite for sure blow up loads and that thread is gone. Barry, I do recall one of your loads mentioned above was tried also.

    ccw1911, regardless of which gun was tested, Bruce and all the posters here couldn't come up with a load that came even somewhat close to the pressures of a proof test load???? Monoblock or not. Hap
     
  15. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    samim03 That is the report. The Marine Corps had ZERO involvement with the report other than the usual is the base responsible in any way aspect. There was no investigative assistance asked for or rendered by either the Corps or the FBI. Read the report and look beyond the big words. There folks have no more experience or qualifications with this issue than you or I. Look at the real data and also understand that some firearm data was provided from another incident and incorporated without any reference to what data came from where. When was the last time you saw load data from the "case" manufacturer. Shotgun reloads use hulls not cases. What does the term Spec Load mean? I'll tell you. It is a contrived word so they don't have to use the term Reload which would limit the "report" usefulness to the attorney representing the gun owner. The reloading portion was a total gloss over. How many years of experience did the fellow loading have? How many times had the shells been reloaded? Remember these were supposed to be CF AAs. Did any of the empties on hand have foreign primers (loose primers or backed out primers will jam the PW and the first instinct is to back up)

    Barry of your two scenarios the first is possible I've done it myself while learning my PW900. A high primer caused it to bind and I backed the handle up to free it. What you actually get is the shell at the shot drop with a double load of shot and the shell at the powder drop station gets double charged. Because the shot is overflowing the case at the shot drop it is obvious. If you are new to the PW it is very easy to overlook the powder double charge and ASSUME you corrected the only problem.
    The second scenario would require you to make at least 2 wrong moves. A short stroke of the handle followed by a back stroke I believe would cause it along with the shell in the wad seating station having no powder.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  16. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Chip. The second scenario, a double charge of powder and a double charge of shot without a wad, is not possible? I would think that would be a hell of a lot of pressure if you can crimp and close the hull.
     
  17. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Be careful what you wish for.....with this incident that took place at Quantico. Y'all be on tho outside looking in.

    I'd let that incident die if it were me......But then that's just my opinion.....%~)
     
  18. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Just trying to analyze the data. Amateur CSI.
     
  19. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    There is no data and there never will be any data. As no manufacturer has the data and it's virtually impossible to generate data. No lab will generate a positive report, for the owner, that is. It's just not possible unless the factory would cough up 100 guns to be analyzed to achieve a standard. The end user is just not able to buy a favorable report, because no one knows what that would be.....All you will receive from any lab will be that it's broken, the hardness tests say this, and maybe an accurate analysis of the base material. Along with all this you will also have a rather large bill to pay......Now that you have your test then what, because you have no valid data of what the other 99 would be, as would be needed to prove the factory wrong.......This just is not going to happen.

    The labs that keep getting mentioned here used to have a statement published saying basically the same thing......They can not do a Bowen test and try to keep blowing up the same gun...... They'd be laughed out of town.

    The only way this will ever be solved is for all manufacturers to donate the necessary amount of guns for destructive testing......I HOPE YOUR NOT HOLDING YOUR BREATH.

    IF there would be a rash of factory loads destroying new guns then, MAYBE there would be some interest........RELOADS....YOUR ON YOUR OWN.
     
  20. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    My focus is not on the guns. It's on the ability to reload a shell powerful enough to do the damage. I don't suspect the gun in the CG cases or the K80 cases. I have even followed the breech explosions of the Remington 1100 and I am still not certain that the guns are the problem. I'd bet there are a hell of a lot more reloads shot through 1100's than all the CG's, Kguns and Pguns put together.

    Back in the nineties there was an Mx8 I knew of that blew up shooting a reload. The breech blew out and the rib went flying but the receiver only stretched. The gun was, of course, totaled but no one was injured. The reload was produced on a P/W with a hydraulic drive. I don't know if the P/W is the culprit or not but it seems to be a place to look and solve a problem if there is one. I don't care about litigation, I do care about safety.
     
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