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How much off set should a stock have?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by joe kuhn, May 5, 2010.

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  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Should a stock have enough off set so it can be held at the side of the face and allow a straight out view of the field with both eyes?

    Or should the shooter have to turn his face into the stock slightly and get the comb under his cheek a little better? This would mean less off set with a view slightly altered from straight away.

    I've taken a stock from the other extreme - straight back with no off set, to the middle setting and seen my scores improve. Will it be even better to go with max?

    I'm thinking of trying this. I know Frank Hoppe talks about a straight out view in his clinic and I like the concept.
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    joe- I like to have my eyes looking at the house and then bring up my gun without turning my head. For me, this requires a bit of cast off.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    IMHO - none, zero, nada.
     
  4. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    None Cast is old School Now it,s OFF-SET .... Off-set works much better then Cast Off and way more repeatable .
     
  5. Ed Y

    Ed Y TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I think that it somewhat depends on the shape of your head and your pupilary distance. If you have a wider head and a narrow pupilary distance, you will need more cast or off set than a person with a narrow head and a wide pupilary distance. If it's a thin stock, the narrow headed, wide eyed shooter might even require some cast on. Whatever it takes to get your shooting eye behind the beads.

    Ed Yanchok
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I hafta agree with Alf. There's many things that must be taken into consideration when fitting a stock. LOP, how you stand, the controlling hand grip on the trigger hand all play a vital role in making consistent shots. The shotgun is both a forgiving tool and a precise pointing instrument depending on how you have the gun set to your numbers. It's so forgiving it allows us to make a lot of shots even with an ill fitting one. That only lasts for a short while though and we pay for it in lost targets somewhere down the path. (Read success with a new gun?)

    If your favored stance is more facing the area of shot placement, (head and shoulders) more off-set is needed to compensate for that type of stance! That goes for AAA size as well as skinny people! Try turning your head slightly more to the left (right handers) when mounting your gun and you'll see the differences it makes in off-set, cast or a straight stock.

    We've trained ourselves so long to adapt to ill fitting shotgun stocks that we eventually find a compromising position we call best because it results in breaking more targets under those circumstances!! That separates a lot of shooters from the top shots by a long mile! Nothing can compare to a stock that's fitted to you after understanding the basics of a proper fit!!

    Hap
     
  7. andybull

    andybull Active Member

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    The need for Offset depends on;

    Facial features, width of shoulders, stance, length of neck and stock crawling or lack there of.

    Andy
     
  8. EuroJoe

    EuroJoe TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Lots, if you like getting hit in the Jaw!
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Here's the real deal. If you wear perscription glasses it would be nice if you were looking through the optical center of the lens when your shooting eye is lined up with the rib and beads. HMB
     
  10. bigbore613

    bigbore613 Active Member

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    Optimum ? Jeff
     
  11. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Thanks for the point Alf. I'm working with off-set, not cast. Corrections made. Off-set is when there are two turns in the stock leaving the comb area parallel with the bore. Cast is when there's one turn and the comb and stock are not parallel to the bore. They angle off into la la land.

    I should have worded my question differently: Should I shoot with the stock under my cheek bone or further to the side of my face?

    That's my question. I do shoot with prescription glasses - good point.

    I see there are preferences both ways, of course.
     
  12. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Pat Ireland said: "I like to have my eyes looking (straight out) at the house and then bring up my gun without turning my head. For me, this requires a bit of cast off"

    Really? I don't know of many shooters actually doing this. If you look through the pictures in TranpshootingUSA, I don't see any. The comb is always under the cheek bone and the face turned in slightly. I'm with you. I think I'm going to try it for the benefit of a straight out view.

    I believe some custom stocks now have a rolling, very high comb that actually keeps you from mounting it under the cheek bone. You have to mount it to the side of your face. I've mounted one of these and the feeling is unique. You loose some feedback in knowing the mount is correct, under the cheek bone, but what you see of the rib and how it feels in the shoulder should help there. And the view outward is right with the world.

    Joe
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I like offset in preference to cast, as do you.

    I also like your observational approach to separating wheat from chaff. What do the best shooters really do (?) , in contrast to

    1. What TS.commers think they do, based of lots of reading of the shotgun press and

    2. What they say they do and

    3. What they honestly think they do.

    The first thing you must have noticed is that there is great diversity even at the top. Kay really does "move as a unit" as do many of his students. Dan is an "arm shooter" that any well-read league competitor at the club would offer to help correct if he met him coming off the field.

    A perfect example was on display at the Clay Target shoot-off as last year's Grand at Sparta. Listening to advice promoting "Follow through" is the price you pay for being a new shooter at a club. "Ya gotta follow through!" "You are stopping the gun" "I can see from the clubhouse that you are shooting behind them because you don't follow through!" "I can _hear_ from the clubhouse that you are shooting behind them because you don't follow through!"

    But in a real shoot-off among champions , no one follows through. The gun that goes off is barely moving and pretty much stops dead rather than going anywhere once empty. Except the winner this year. He follows through like the most gullible novice at the club who actually _listens_ to all the guff I quoted above.

    "Keeping your eyes looking straight out" is more of the same over-read and under-tried advice. But you can discard it in the comfort of your own home, rather than driving to the club and spending any money. It's a three-plus-step process:

    Step 1. Hold you head up, eyes level, and lock your eyes on something straight ahead so you are "looking straight out."

    Step 2. Holding your head and eyes just like that, shoulder your gun and point it at the object you are staring at.

    Step 3. Decide that it can't be done without investing in one of those ultra-expensive negative-width stocks you read about in the "Retail Therapy" section of Trapshooting USA, and so move to the last steps.

    Next to last step. File and fill and file and fill and file until the center of the comb is about 1/4 inch offset from the rib-line; more if you have a wide or fat face, or a jaw-hinge which is set farther out than with many people.

    Last step/steps. Forget all the theory and see how your new stock feels _to you_ and how the scores are and if there is more to do or not, that is, if it's about right, which it will be.

    Do not sell your leftover sandpaper and files - this is lifelong quest and your taste, or body, or understanding will change over time. And then maybe change back, too. And then back again. It's amazing. You can get it picture-perfect and shoot it that way for months or years and then one afternoon you will say "Hey, this isn't right! It needs to be relieved a bit right here and raised too." And then you are off and running again.

    Neil
     
  14. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Unless your head is shaped like a cube, you will need to turn your head into the stock some.
     
  15. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I can get that eyes straight ahead mount whenever I rest my chin on the top of the comb and place the recoil pad in the center of my chest instead of the shoulder pocket. Someone mentioned facial features and I have deep set eye sockets with low eyebrows and a prominent nose bridge (Neanderthal type) and so I have a built in excuse for low scores. The only gun I own with offset is my Model 50 field gun and it always feels strange the first few times that I mount it without moving my face around a bit.
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    The eyes can be level and straight out even if the head is turned a few degrees to the right, into the comb. Some people using the erect head, level eyes have a more pronounced upper jaw bone which is their reference lock point. The also have some stock off-set that allows them to have that look. There is no one best answer for stock fit.

    Hap
     
  17. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Neil,

    Love the tweak/test step, but the guys here are generally helpful as well. They add a good check on covering the range, not so good at checking the limits, which makes sense.

    Holga says I'm a blockhead every once in a while, but I don't think she means it literally.
     
  18. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Good comments by Neil. His last paragraph is my experience. I am making my second stock. When step 2 is completed the beads should be lined up with the eye pointing at the target. If the head has to be moved the stock does not fit. I didn't understand these things when I made the first stock. It is common to see people tilt or turn their head slightly because I think most people shoot a gun that does not fit properly.

    Joe, If you really are a blockhead just build in more offset to compensate.
     
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