1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

How Much Do Targets Spin? (With Videos) * Updated*

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by trap4ever, Jun 3, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. trap4ever

    trap4ever Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    91
    Location:
    Twin Cities, Minnesota
    Since target spin is so critical to breaking a trap target (some say more important than the difference between 7 1/2's and 8's!).

    You might like to know a bit more about it - the first question being "How much is there?"

    Videos at Neil Winston's tech corner on North Star Clay target tell the story and end with an intriguing little test.

    These are the first of a series of videos planned to keep you entertained during the summer months; you can look forward to the next target-spin test "soon."

    Click the link above; I hope you enjoy it.

    ****** Update *****
    It was pointed out that several individuals were not able to download the videos to their local hard drives. I have changed the location of the files and everyone should now be able to download the files to their locate drives. For your testing please follow the information Neil placed in Part #1.

    Ron


    Ron Baker

    Webmaster, North Star Clay Target
     
  2. below 0

    below 0 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Messages:
    240
    Good Job Ron..Good to know that you are back on the pages to help us out. Thank You too, Neil...Odie
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Those two videos prove how important it is to keep the rubber inserts in trap machines pliable and soft to have a better grip on the targets edge as they're launched. The more RPMs the better. Thanks Ron!!

    Hap
     
  4. RickN

    RickN Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    3,037
    Location:
    Minnysoda
    In the second video where you were to guess how much the rotation slowed, what did you guys think?
     
  5. GrubbyJack

    GrubbyJack Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Messages:
    527
    Try this
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    RickN, the rotations have slowed dramatically but my question was why the target was wobbling near it's peak? The very last target in the second video wasn't wobbling as it neared the ground as the other two were.

    Hap
     
  7. RickN

    RickN Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2008
    Messages:
    3,037
    Location:
    Minnysoda
    I thought the rotation had slowed by well over half. I noticed what I thought was a wobble also.
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,845
    There was a download problem which has now been fixed. Follow the directions in red. Download the video to your own "downloads" folder and open it with the Windows viewer or Quicktime 7 on a MAC.

    View both videos with the kind of viewers which go frame-by-frame so you can count the number of frames which picture a single turn, that is, puts the white line in the same place a revolution later. What you will be doing is using the right arrow and counting how many times you have to hit it to get the white line to the same place a revolution later. If it takes about 18 clicks, you have it right . . .

    Sorry for the confusion.

    Neil
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,845
    Now if anyone actually downloads those videos and then counts the turns, he or she will see that the spin of the targets _does not_ slow on the way to the stake more than between zero and three percent. Said another way, a revolution takes 18 (1/600 second) frames at the start. And at the end a revolution takes between 18 and 18 1/2 frames. That means the target is spinning about the same at the start and at the end.

    Try it!

    Neil
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,845
    It appears no one will actually look at the videos in the way - with the right viewer - they can get something out of them. So just this once I'll show you what you missed.

    Here are photos from the traphouse.

    Frame minus 1, before you can any white at all.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame zero, just a touch of white

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    In frame 1 the bird has rotated about 20 degrees and you can see a lot of white.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 2

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 3

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 4

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 5

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 6

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 7

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 8

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 9

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 10

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 11

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 12

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 13

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 14

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 15

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 16

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 17

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 18 About like frame zero, one full rotation.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame 19, well past one full rotation

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    So I hope we can agree that a rotation takes 18 frames when the bird is early in flight, still close by the traphouse.

    Neil
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,845
    Now we will do the same thing from the stake.

    Frame -1, before we can see any white.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    Frame zero; Look and you can see just a trace of white on the very right side of the rim of the target.

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 1, more white

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 2

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 3

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 4

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 5

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 6

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 7

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 8

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 9

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 10

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 11

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 12

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 13

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 14

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 15

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 16

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 17, still no white

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>



    Frame 18, about like frame zero


    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    Frame 19, well past one complete rotation

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    So that's it. In the flight from traphouse to stake, the spin of trap targets slows to a degree which is barely perceptible.

    Neil
     
  12. quartering

    quartering Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,440
    so the targets spin at a rate of 33 revolutions per second while traveling at a speed of 61 fps. or about one full revolution per each 2 feet traveled. does that sound right?
     
  13. Mapper

    Mapper Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2008
    Messages:
    684
    Location:
    SW Michigan
    Cool! back in the day, I think I could see the spin. Now I am happy to see the target.
     
  14. sts1100

    sts1100 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    187
    Very interesting topic and good work. Any opinions as to whether different machines impart different spin rates, such as do the present day machines that use a wiper spin the target more or less than the older machines that had the wiper and surface as a single unit as on the Winchester 1577 machine? This subject has been debated at different times and some older shooters think the Winchester machines spin the target more than PAT or GMV machines.

    Dave
     
  15. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,722
    How many RPM do they actually spin? How many RPM should they spin if all is perfect?


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  16. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,913
    I wouldn't think that any other machine would make the target spin any faster or slower. If they did, it would because of the velocity of the target(or the machine's arm) being faster of slower. As mentioned above, a bad, glazed-up rubber on the throwing arm could cause the target to skid which in turn could slow the RPM.

    Targets set according to the ATA specs...height and speed, should all spin the same RPM, regardless of what machine throws them.

    Maybe I'm all wrong....

    Doug
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    GunDr., the old Winchester hand-sets put more spin on targets than those currently used. The clay stayed on the arm for a longer distance and they seemed to stabilize in wind farther out too. Vaseline on that rubber insert would throw knuckleballs better than a major league knuckleballer! :)

    Hap
     
  18. Twinbirds

    Twinbirds TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,144
    you know it is always so easy to sit back and second guess somebody elses work. So far I'll say great job, no one has ever brought this to the public. Now the nit picky side of me will question the friction content of the white stripe on the very surface to be contacting the arm. Yes it shows up great in the video but it makes one wonder how much is lost/ gained in the surface friction difference? Truly a great effort, but I think it (filming)would be more precise if the contact surface of the target hadn't been altered. Sorry years of R & D at work. and knowing how fast the target spins doesn't make any of us a better shooter. great effort Neil and Ron! Thank you
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,845
    Twinbirds, thanks, and that is a perfectly fair concern. And it's also why I thanked MIA (Jack Swanson) for his painting tip.

    A traparm does not contact the bird on the rim. Above and inside of the rim is what's called "the driving band" and that's where the rubber meets the bird. It's the first ring above the rim. I wanted to keep paint off the driving band for exactly the reason you cited and had planned a painting jig to be constructed of wood with a little shelf on the back and so on. It would have had a cutout of about 2/3 of a bird width, and the cutout was to be just tall enough for the rim (only) to slip through, thus screening the driving band from sprayed paint.

    I described all of that to Jack two weeks ago at a shoot at Metro. He thought for a moment and suggested:

    "Why don't you simply paint them still stacked up and just throw the top one away?"

    Now that's what I call a good idea!

    Neil
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,845
    Quartering, while, as you say, the bird is going about two feet through the air for every revolution at the start, by the end of its flight it is traveling a lot slower but the spin has not changed. So by the stake the bird is only traveling maybe a foot per revolution, probably less.

    Neil
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Search tags for this page
how do you make a trap target spin faster
,

neil winston target spin

,
target spin from trap machines