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How many grains PB w/ Cheddite primer?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by pullbangloss, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. pullbangloss

    pullbangloss Active Member

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    I've got about 5 pounds of PB laying around that I would like to load up for these hard winter targets. I haven't shot this type of powder for a few years so I'm looking for some opinions on how many grains to load.

    I'll be loading PB with Cheddite primers, Windjammers wads, and will load it with 1 1/8 7 1/2's probably in a Remington hull.

    Thanks in advance,
    Matt Krizinski
     
  2. tuscarora 99

    tuscarora 99 TS Member

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    Hogdons website lists that with a winchester primer, which they say is a direct substitute for the cheddite primer, you can use all the way up to 24 grains to get 1250 fps with psi of 9100.
    Heres the link to the site.

    http://data.hodgdon.com/shotshell_load.asp
     
  3. CANTWIN

    CANTWIN Member

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    Do you think that was the problem.If it is load some for me and your dad to.

    hook
     
  4. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <I>"Hogdons website lists that with a winchester primer, which they say is a direct substitute for the cheddite primer..."</I>

    I don't know who "they" is but Hodgdon never said that about the Cheddite primer. The Nobel Sport, yes, the Cheddite, no.

    And if "they" isn't Hodgdon, why would you listen to "they"? Where did "they" get their data?

    MK
     
  5. locdoc

    locdoc Member

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    Just curious........... Where did you find the following:

    "which they say is a direct substitute for the cheddite primer"

    I do know that their 2008 Basic Reloaders Manual on page 35 states the following about primer substitution. "The Nobel Sport 209 may be safely substituted wherever the Win 209 is shown".

    What may or may not be interesting is that that comment is not in the online down loadable version.

    I had not heard about the Cheddite.

    The generally accepted admonition to not sub primers just may be very sage advice.

    Doug Whiton, P/W dealer/dist
     
  6. pullbangloss

    pullbangloss Active Member

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    Hook,

    Trying to find that magical load that breaks every target...LOL.

    Regards,
    Matt Krizinski
     
  7. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Call Hodgdon and ask them. You'll get a straight answer.
     
  8. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    If it's not listed in the manual or online, give Hodgdon a shout and get their take on it. The Cheddite primers are not directly interchangeable with any other primer. They may produce similar results in a few loads as some other primers, but they are NOT the same.
     
  9. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    A call to Alliant about Cheddites once got me the advice to "use the Federal primer data".

    That was their advice... not mine.

    MK
     
  10. tcr1146

    tcr1146 Well-Known Member

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    To further muddy the waters, Accurate Powder such as solo 1000 etc, list Rem, WW and Ched primers interchangeably in all their data! Too much may be made of this dangerous substitution?! Tom Rhoads
     
  11. tuscarora 99

    tuscarora 99 TS Member

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    I had the hogdon rep at the sctp grand told me that.
     
  12. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    tcr1146 gets the PRIZE!

    plug it in, fill it up, put it in a gun, poiont it at a target, and boom, get a 25.

    After all, he did not say he was shooting a CG
     
  13. fishguts

    fishguts Member

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    Matt, I'm shooting this load and it hits targets hard:

    AA hull

    Cheddite primer

    25 grs. PB

    R12H Rem. wad or WAA12F114 wad

    1 1/8th. #7's

    1300fps..10500psi.

    use enough wad pressure to seat it if using the R12H. If you use the AAF114 wad use new cases because you will need a strong crimp to hold the crimp down. I use the AA new style cases, once fired, when using the AAF114 wad. For ATA I'm going to cut back to 24grs. and use 7 1/2's or 8's.

    Wayne Meyers
     
  14. SeldomShoots

    SeldomShoots Active Member

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    Is it realistic to be nervous about substituting primers? Most load recipes that I look at only call for .5 to 1.5 grain variations of powder when using different wads and primers. Further the psi variations only vary from 1,000 to 1,500 psi.

    Don't get me wrong, safety is a priority, but can anyone here actually conclude that their reloader drops the exact same charge every time, or for that matter that every factory load has an equivalent charge in every shell? I doubt it. Aren't modern guns proof tested well beyond the pressures generated by most published reload recipes or factory loads? And for that matter can we conclude that the bushing charts showing the grains of powder dropped are accurate? I have not had one yet that matches P/W's or a 366's charts regarding their powder bushings.

    Further, isn't the old rule of thumb regarding primer hotness as follows:
    Hottest to coolest:

    Fed 209A
    CCI 209M
    Winchester/Cheddite/Nobel/Fiocchi 616
    CCI 209
    Remington STS

    Not trying to throw rocks at hornets nest of opinions, but I would like to know if a bump of 1,000 to 2,000 psi is really going to blow my gun up, and if so, how does anyone account for all the variations in load consistency?

    As for a PB load, Matt, I haven't loaded any 1 1/8 ounce loads, but 20.5 grains of PB in Remington hull with a Target 12 wad and cheddite primer makes a great 1238 fps (according to chrono) 16 yard or doubles load that has very low recoil.

    John E.
     
  15. pullbangloss

    pullbangloss Active Member

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    Thanks Wayne! I'll give it a shot.

    Regards,
    Matt Krizinski
     
  16. WilliamMR

    WilliamMR Active Member

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    I'm surprised Wayne gave up his secret load. It's no wonder his name is up at Glen Park with the most 100 straights at the 16's.
     
  17. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <I>"Is it realistic to be nervous about substituting primers? Most load recipes that I look at only call for .5 to 1.5 grain variations of powder when using different wads and primers. Further the psi variations only vary from 1,000 to 1,500 psi."</I>

    I once had a similar discussion with a ballistics engineer about this subject and he pointed out to me that it's not just the increase in pressure that comes from the primer swap by itself that should be of concern. It's the additional increase in pressure that comes from the powder drops that are a half grain heavy added to the increase in pressure that is generated by the crimp that's .020" deeper than spec on the hull that's a tad longer than the rest, added to the pressure increase from the wads that are pushed a little too hard into the hull taper.

    Stack up all these conditions that individually might not make much difference and you can turn a 10,500 psi load into a 13 or 14,000 psi whopper. Or you can do it without so much effort by happening to choose that one powder that your new primer doesn't want to play well with.

    So either way, to me it's realistic to be nervous, especially if you shoot next to a guy who routinely reloads shells like that.

    MK
     
  18. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Luvs2shoot

    It's really not the 25 higher pressure shells you shot that breaks the gun. It's the other 99,975 of them. Target shooters will fire many thousands of shells in the couse of a year. If they are even slightly over pressure limits, it's not hard to imagine that a potential catastrophic failure is in the works. Some primer substitutions can change pressures by almost 4000 PSI. Start with a load st 10K and substitute a primer that increases pressures by 3000 or more and you have the makings of a darwin award.

    Nervous is not the word. Cautious is a better one. When working with things that go bang, it's best to be on the conservative side when it comes to pressures. There are many other variables that can affect pressures, so if they all stack up in the worng direction, you could be in trouble.

    HP White Labs published some documents about firearms failures. Repetitive use of over pressure loads seems to be where they put the blame of a lot of catastrophic failures. Not usually the "one" over loaded shell. Most firearms will contain one or two. I would not expect my firearm to stay together after shooting thousands of "Special" loads.

    There is enough data and a wide selection of components out there so nobody has to load shells with higher pressures than recommended. My gun and my safety is not worth "using up" or "going cheap" on components and trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Do it right or buy factory shells, since someone else has done the research and testing for you.
     
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